Reincarnation: Who Is It That Travels?

He followed the Bhagavad Gita faithfully but when he referenced the Upanishads to it, he caused a confusion, perhaps because he is in advaita sect, where the ultimate objective is Oneness.

The antar atma he mentioned which is all pervasive is not the individual atma (jivatma). In the Gita there are two types of atmas with the paramatma or antaratma being the Supreme Being who supports everything and the atma being the limited eternal being who supports everything in its body only and who does not support everything.

He avoids explaining individuality and suggest that it is apparent or likely only as a reflection of the antaratma or the Supreme Being. This will lead down to a dark alley, where there is no atma and there is only antaratma, where all there is, is a sun and its reflections in those buckets of water.

That is absurd.

I say this, both realities are there where we have the limited selves and the unlimited overlord self. There is a relationship between the limited selves and the overlord self but that does not mean that it is a relationship of there being an overlord self only with illusion limited selves.

The limited selves even though limited are reality. The effort to dismiss them is ludicrous because they are perpetual even though they have hang-ups and are not in the position of the overlord self.

As an advaita Vedantist, his job is to erase the significance of the limited selves because there is a discovery where one realizes that because of being limited or not in total control, one will be subject to trauma.

However this teacher is one of the best of the Vedantists I heard in a long time because he tried his best to stick to the Gita as much as his lineage could possibly tolerate.

Those are all interesting comments.

I spent some time looking for a Gita verse which I think says that yogis who meditate on Krishna as the Supreme and also yogis who meditate on the one absolute reality that permeates everything, both reach the supreme abode. If anyone knows offhand of a verse like that, please help me out.

I am not taking promises from anyone, not even Lords Krishna or Buddha. In the end we have to help the self by the self. I continue striving for clarity and reduction of bias in my meditations. I don't see any other way.

These may be the verses:

अर्जुन उवाच

एवं सततयुक्ता ये

भक्तास्त्वां पर्युपासते ।

ये चाप्यक्षरमव्यक्तं

तेषां के योगवित्तमाः ॥१२.१॥

arjuna uvāca

evaṁ satatayuktā ye

bhaktāstvāṁ paryupāsate

ye cāpyakṣaramavyaktaṁ

teṣāṁ ke yogavittamāḥ (12.1)

arjuna — Arjuna; uvāca — said; evaṁ — thus; satatayuktā = satata—constantly + yuktā — disciplined in yoga; ye — who; bhaktāh — devoted; tvam —you; paryupāsate — they cherish; ye — who; cāpi = ca — and + api — also; akṣaram — imperishable; avyaktaṁ — invisible existence; teṣāṁ — of them; ke — which; yogavittamāḥ — those who have the highest knowledge of yoga

Arjuna said: Of those who are constantly disciplined in yoga, being also devoted to You, and those who cherish the imperishable invisible existence, which of these two have the highest knowledge of the yoga techniques? (Bhagavad Gita 12.1)

श्रीभगवानुवाच

मय्यावेश्य मनो ये मां

नित्ययुक्ता उपासते ।

श्रद्धया परयोपेतास्

ते.मे युक्ततमा मताः ॥१२.२॥

śrībhagavānuvāca

mayyāveśya mano ye māṁ

nityayuktā upāsate

śraddhayā parayopetās

te me yuktatamā matāḥ (12.2)

Śrībhagavān — the Blessed Lord;uvāca — said; mayyāveśya = mayi-on me + āveśya — focusing on: mano = manaḥ — mind; ye — who; māṁ — me; nityayuktā — those who are always disciplined in yoga; upāsate — they worship; śraddhayā — with faith; parayopetās = parayā — with the highest degree; + upetāḥ — endowed; te they; me — to me; yuktatamā — most disciplined; matāḥ — considered

The Blessed Lord said: Those whose minds are focused on Me, who are always disciplined in yoga, who are always involved in worship of Me, who are endowed with the highest degree of faith, they are considered to be the most disciplined. (Bhagavad Gita 12.2)

ये त्वक्षरमनिर्देश्यम्

अव्यक्तं पर्युपासते ।

सर्वत्रगमचिन्त्यं च

कूटस्थमचलं ध्रुवम् ॥१२.३॥

ye tvakṣaramanirdeśyam

avyaktaṁ paryupāsate

sarvatragamacintyaṁ ca

kūṭasthamacalaṁ dhruvam (12.3)

ye — who; tu — but; akṣaram — imperishable; anirdeśyam — undefinable; avyaktaṁ— invisible; paryupāsate — they cherish; sarvatragam — all-pervading; acintyam — inconceivable; ca — and; kūṭastham — unchanging; acalaṁ —- immovable; dhruvam — constant

But those who cherish the imperishable, undefinable, invisible, all-pervading, inconceivable, unchanging, immovable, constant reality, (Bhagavad Gita 12.3)

संनियम्येन्द्रियग्रामं

सर्वत्र समबुद्धयः ।

ते प्राप्नुवन्ति मामेव

सर्वभूतहिते रताः ॥१२.४॥

saṁniyamyendriyagrāmaṁ

sarvatra samabuddhayaḥ

te prāpnuvanti māmeva

sarvabhūtahite ratāḥ (12.4)

saṁniyamyendriyagrāmaṁ = saṁniyamya — controlling + indriyagrāmaṁ — all sensual energies; sarvatra — in all respects; samabuddhayaḥ — even-minded; te — them; prāpnuvanti — they attain; mām — me; eva — also; sarvabhūtahite = sarvabhūta — all creatures + hite — in the welfare; ratāḥ — rejoicing

...by controlling all sensual energies, being even-minded in all respects, rejoicing in the welfare of all creatures, they also attain Me. (12.4)

क्लेशोऽधिकतरस्तेषाम्

अव्यक्तासक्तचेतसाम् ।

अव्यक्ता हि गतिर्दुःखं

देहवद्भिरवाप्यते ॥१२.५॥

kleśo'dhikatarasteṣām

avyaktāsaktacetasām

avyaktā hi gatirduḥkhaṁ

dehavadbhiravāpyate (12.5)

kleśo — kleśaḥ — exertion; 'dhikataraḥ = adhikataraḥ — greater; tesam — of them; avyaktāsaktacetasām — avyakta — invisible existence + āsakta — attached + cetasām — of minds; avyaktā — invisible reality; hi — truly; gatiḥ — goal; duḥkhaṁ — difficult; dehavadbhiḥ — by the human beings; avāpyate — is attained

The mental exertion of those whose minds are attached to the invisible existence is greater. The goal of reaching that invisible reality is attained with difficulty by the human beings. (Bhagavad Gita 12.5)

Yes, those are the verses. Thank you!

Impressive presentation! His analogies I found to be on point. It would be a really good introductory-level revision for inSelf yogis as far as providing an easy, understandable example that demonstrates the difference between a subtle body and the physical. In particular, that of software versus hardware and then electricity as a parallelism for the technicalities of soul transmigration or migration as techies call it.

From there jumping to liberation and cessation of all causes of suffering by the destruction of the psyche (false identification as he puts it), which includes what he’d call the false ego (or the social self) is a super simplistic non-yogic response to the sum total of the inSelf yogis’ endeavor.

Suggesting that this is done by just doing self-inquiry and the words of the Vedanta in order to “attain” (my word), the ancient rishis, denotes a lack of knowledge regarding the process and the product to be applied to it. Yes, moksha would also include dispelling ignorance, I’d say by certainly approaching a rishi, as I can dialogue with one right here.

Lack of validated direct experience of the psyche whatever the practice or techniques applied renders a serious impediment regarding that very issue. And without such, the presentation or argumentation ends IMO in a propaganda of sorts, I miss the practical value.

The approaches of inSelf Yoga, Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism are certainly different. Perhaps there are more similarities between Advaita and Buddhism but I really don't know any more about Advaita Vedanta than what I heard in this monk's talk. In the Buddhist teachings I've received, there is no direct reference to a subtle body. However, it almost seems that through studying the mind and the body with vipassana technique, the subtle body is being perceived through noting all gross and subtle sensations, moods and feelings, and visions. With containment (pratyhar) the subtle body is confined to the parameters of the physical form and is studied in its bare state. Dreams may be experienced with the ideal of having none. So the differences are real. As for the dispelling of ignorance, this is not gifted by a teacher. There may be instructions and darshan which points the way but the validation comes from direct experience. I wish all practicioners of the various paths well. I'm acting within the flow of my previous deeds, accomplishments and impressions. I think the most important thing to do and which we can do within our limitations, is to keep track of experiences and insights and allow the path to unfold while being acutely aware of what's happening.