Yogas - Combinations
Meditationtime Forum Post
Date: Posted 3 years before Aug 16, 2016
MiBeloved 3 years ago
The various combination yogas really are combinations of some psychological process or tendency and yoga. These psychological processes may operate by themselves. Sometimes they are enough for the purpose intended and do not require yoga to assist them.
For clarity purposes and not to be cheating people who are ignorant of what yoga is, one should not mistake a combination process for a single process or a single process for a combination process.
There is karma as a process and there is karma yoga as a combination of that karma process and yoga practice.
There is jnana as a process and there is jnana yoga as a combination of jnana and yoga practice.
There is bhakti as a process and there is bhakti yoga as a combination of bhakti and yoga practice.
In the Gita, Krishna introduced two yogas which he listed as jnana yoga and karma yoga. There is no mention of bhakti yoga using those specific terms in the Bhagavad Gita but in the Uddhava Gita, Krishna did mention bhakti yoga specifically using those terms.
However in chapter two of Bhagavad Gita Krishna gave a summary explanation of what is done in another yoga which he termed as buddhi-yoga. Buddhi is the intellectual analytical process. When yoga is added we get a combination system which is control of the intellectual process using techniques of yoga. For that matter the whole idea of Patanjali for which he laid out the foundation of yoga, has to do with buddhi yoga and kundalini yoga but Patanjali does not use these terms he says cittavritti nirodhah. Since cittavritti is powered by the intellect and the kundalini, mastership of it, means proficiency in buddhi yoga and kundalini yoga. That is the indirect hint from Patanjali
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Bhakti means devotional love. This could be conjugal love too, provided the deity accepts the person in that way. Bhakti means devotional love in some feature as a servant of the deity, a friend, a mother, a father, a brother, a sister a lover or an established spouse. Any of these are expression of bhakti. However there is a catch, because even though I may love the deity and present myself as a servant, the deity may not accept me. In that case the bhakti is ineffective. It is useless.
Bhakti can operate all by itself without yoga. There need not be yoga, if the deity accepts the service, the way Krishna accepted friendship from Arjuna. Of course before the battle of Kurukshetra, there were some problems where Krishna did not like Arjuna’s service attitude. But once that was corrected, Arjuna began to serve in devotion to Krishna even a servant-friend doing combat on Krishna’s behalf.
Since bhakti can work all by itself without yoga, there is no need to pass off bhakti as bhakti yoga. There is no need to add anything or combining anything with bhakti because it can work all by itself, if you have that relationship with the deity, if the deity accepts your devotion.
However if you feel that your devotion needs to be fine-tuned or that it needs to be of a higher quality or of a higher intensity, then you may do yoga, to hone it. That is possible and then that is bhakti yoga.
The same consideration applies to karma. If you can work for Krishna just like that, as you are without any disciplinary process or refinement, then there is no need to do karma and yoga. You can do karma and that will serve the purpose. However if you falter in trying to do karma by itself, as Arjuna faltered before the battle, then it might be in your interest to master yoga and apply the mastery to your karmic endeavors. Krishna schooled Arjuna in a karma yoga crash course before the battle. Then Arjuna did karma yoga successfully.
At first Arjuna said that he did not get it about how to do karma with a yogic profile. Krishna explained the process and since Arjuna had already mastered yoga practice, Arjuna immediately understood the application of yoga to karma endeavor.
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You can also do jnana which is to cull out conclusions from your karmic work. This is called culling out the knowledge or resultant information from karmic activity. If you can do this proficiently, you may become realize just by doing this without doing any yoga. Persons like Ramana Maharshi did this.
Some people think that Buddha did this but that is incorrect. What happened is that Buddha’s disciples tried to do this. Some were successful and some were not. Buddha actually did jnana yoga because he was doing yoga practice to proficiency and then he applied that to the conclusions about material existence and he became enlightened thereby.
Later when he decides to teach, Buddha did not teach that one should do the gruesome yoga austerities. He designed another system for others called the Middle Way because he did not think others could do what he did. People misunderstand and think that Buddha became enlightened by the Middle Way. This is not a fact. What is true is that after he spoke with the Brahma deity, and that deity convinced him that he should teach, he designed a practical method for the average person which is the Middle Way. He got enlightened not by jnana or conclusion but by jnana yoga, which is yoga practice used to deal with conclusions.
Buddha himself said that no one will be able to do what he did or to reach his level of realization and that is because the Middle Way is not the system he himself used. Buddha did not think that any other person would use the full system which he used. Read about this in his discourse with the Brahma deity after he became enlightened.
Dean 3 years ago
Michael wrote: The same consideration applies to karma. If you can work for Krishna just like that, as you are without any disciplinary process or refinement, then there is no need to do karma and yoga. You can do karma and that will serve the purpose. However if you falter in trying to do karma by itself, as Arjuna faltered before the battle, then it might be in your interest to master yoga and apply the mastery to your karmic endeavors. Krishna schooled Arjuna in a karma yoga crash course before the battle. Then Arjuna did karma yoga successfully.
Dean's comment: I wanted to share a story from this book From Death to Birth: Understanding Karma and Reincarnation, which is another example of karma yoga.
On pg. 109, the author shares "the story of Shankaracharya's life, well known in the spiritual tradition of India, illustrates how a sage can intervene in the law of karma for the greater good of humanity."
The great master Shankaracharya was born in south India in the eighth century A.D. At a very early age he mastered the Sanskirt language and the scriptures-a task that normally takes many years of intense study. When he was still a child he left his home in the pursuit of enlightenment, met his master, and received initiation. By the time he was twelve he had become one of the most prominent spiritual leaders of his day.
This great adept had a profound understanding of the dynamics of destiny and knew that he had a total of only sixteen years to live. He worked without ceasing to complete his life's mission within the allotted time; and when his time to die had come, he made plans to cast off his body in the high peaks of the Himalayas. He was seated in a cave near Badrinath, preparing to return the elements of his body back to their source, when Sage Vyasa arrived and argued that his mission was not complete, that he had only laid the groundwork. What good is a mission which dies out as soon as you leave your body? He asked. You must stay and train those who can continue your work after you are gone.
To this Shankaracharya replied, I agree with what you say. But how I remain in a body which I am supposed to use for only sixteen years?
I will give you sixteen years of my own life, Vyasa replied.
And so Shankaracharya lived sixteen more years, teaching the gospel of unitary consciousness, training students, and writing commentaries on the scriptures, as well as independent texts. He left his body at the age of thirty-two."
Dean 3 years ago
To continue from the previous post.......
As the author explains it, since his karmic obligations were complete and he was personally free from the law of karma, but he still accepted his destiny. Only when divine providence motivated Vyasa to intervene did Shankaracharya agree to stay in the body.
Neo_Yogi 3 years ago
MiBeloved said:
Later when he decides to teach, Buddha did not teach that one should do the gruesome yoga austerities. He designed another system for others called the Middle Way because he did not think others could do what he did. People misunderstand and think that Buddha became enlightened by the Middle Way. This is not a fact. What is true is that after he spoke with the Brahma deity, and that deity convinced him that he should teach, he designed a practical method for the average person which is the Middle Way. He got enlightened not by jnana or conclusion but by jnana yoga, which is yoga practice used to deal with conclusions.
Buddha himself said that no one will be able to do what he did or to reach his level of realization and that is because the Middle Way is not the system he himself used. Buddha did not think that any other person would use the full system which he used. Read about this in his discourse with the Brahma deity after he became enlightened.
Neo_Yogi's Reply:
But that's not what the Buddha explains in the early Buddhist texts we have. In the Maha-Saccaka Sutta, The Longer Discourse to Saccaka, we can read:
"I thought: 'Whatever brahmans or contemplatives in the past have felt painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever brahmans or contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be greater than this. Whatever brahmans or contemplatives in the present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?'
"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.'
"So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained equanimous, mindful, & alert, and sensed pleasure with the body. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.
"This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.
"This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
"This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
So after realizing that hard austerities took him nowhere, he tried a different approach and it was then when he discovered -not designed- the Middle Way.
About why he decided not to teach the Dhamma, he explained that it was because of the complexity of the whole teaching and its realization:
"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise.[3] But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality & dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me.' (…)
"As I reflected thus, my mind inclined to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma.
"Then Brahma Sahampati, having known with his own awareness the line of thinking in my awareness, thought: 'The world is lost! The world is destroyed! The mind of the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Rightly Self-awakened One inclines to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma!' Then, just as a strong man might extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm, Brahma Sahampati disappeared from the Brahma-world and reappeared in front of me. Arranging his upper robe over one shoulder, he knelt down with his right knee on the ground, saluted me with his hands before his heart, and said to me: 'Lord, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! Let the One-Well-Gone teach the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.' (…)
"Then, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, I surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One. As I did so, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace & danger in the other world. Just as in a pond of blue or red or white lotuses, some lotuses — born & growing in the water — might flourish while immersed in the water, without rising up from the water; some might stand at an even level with the water; while some might rise up from the water and stand without being smeared by the water — so too, surveying the world with the eye of an Awakened One, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace & danger in the other world.
Ariyapariyesana Sutta - The Noble Search
MiBeloved 3 years ago
But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?'
MiBeloved’s Response:
This means that when a yogin does austerities with focus on the material side of the austerities, he does not get any realization about the divine side of existence necessarily.
It also means that the yogi will get information about a physical state of existence where one uses the minimum nutrients of the material body but that will not allow him to see anything about the divine side necessarily.
Buddha started out running from old age, disease, death and with an interest to find out why some people abandon the good materialistic life. Based on these motives he did the austerities which were the recommended course given by some yogic teachers in the area where he was in India.
This statement does not mean that the austerities are useless. It only means that what he was really looking for he could not get by doing those austerities with the particular motivations he had at the time.
But the austerities did help him to realize that the material body is not the problem and that realization about the rapture which is not based on the material body, cannot be attained by paying attention to that body, either in its nourished or emaciated conditions.
Telling a person that it means the austerities are useless is misleading and show great ignorance.
One cannot attain a divine state merely by doing austerities like starving the body because otherwise all the people who lived in Biafra at the time of the famine there would have attained enlightenment, and all the people in the Sahara now who are in such a condition would be enlightened and all the people whom the Germans starved in concentration camps would be enlightened.
But this does not mean that the yogis austerities of starving the body and so on, have no benefit for anyone. It depends on the motive of the person who is doing the austerities. The motives which Buddha began with were the wrong motives for getting that type of realization, except for one important benefit which he got and which most people are too blind to see, which is the realization that the material body is not the cause of the problems and its afflictions cannot be the direct solution of the real problems.
That is the realization Buddha got from it and it is a very important realization. Question is:
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Continued from above.......
Can I just get this realization without performing these authorities, because if I cannot then I will have to do the same (useless) austerities to gain that understanding?
The reason why most of us will have to do those austerities is because we are conditioned to use the body for getting the pleasure which is not based on sensuality. That is our training for millions of years, so it will not be possible for us to just jump up to not doing austerities. Most of us will have to do the austerities to come to that understanding.
You are thinking after reading this that you can do this get this understanding integrated into your nature without the gruesome austerities but I am saying that you are kidding yourself. The mere idea that you did not see the value of the austerities which Buddha later rejected, means that you are not mature in this and therefore you cannot get to the understanding by any other means but austerities.
This reminds me of all these people who took loans for big opulent houses, but they did not have the income basis to keep paying for the loans and so they faced foreclosure. Or there is the case of those people who go to Wal-Mart and buy a Persian rug. Wal-Mart only sells fake rugs. But still these people go away with a feeling that they have a Persian rug.
Buddha bought his rug from the expensive store of austerities. Do you think that he can mass produce such rugs and hand them out to one and all as the Middle Way? I doubt it.
Do you think that the engineer at the aircraft factory who designed the passenger jet can give his understanding and skill to a passenger who rides on the plane, so that the passenger can manufacture and then fly that plane?
That is not going to happen unless the passenger first takes some schooling in making aircraft. The passenger can fly in the plane but they won’t have the skill of the engineer merely by sitting in the aircraft while it flies.
From archeology we know that there is potential from ape to human but that would take millions of years.
Why so long?
It is just a matter of including one or two other genes. So why can’t we get rid of those millions of years and just turn every ape in the jungles of Africa into humans without going through all of that time?
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"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?'
MiBeloved’s Response:
This experience was when he was secluded from sensuality and secluded from unskillful mental qualities.
What is that?
Can you explain that?
Are you also entering such states?
Rapture and pleasure born from seclusion, from being alone, existentially, physically, mentally and emotionally. Are you experiencing this?
While experiencing this do you have directed thought and evaluation?
However the big question here is that even if you are experiencing that why is it that you are not enlightened? Why is it that Buddha could not make use of that before he went through the austerities? Can another person do this without that process, based on Buddha did?
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Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge.
MiBeloved’s Response:
Following the Middle Way?
How?
With this realization about the rapture and pleasure born from seclusion? Can you use that and cast aside other pleasures which have other psychological sources?
How can you sort it all as Buddha did?
He could not sort it until he did the austerities but you are suggesting that you will be able to do without going through the austerities. How would that be done?
We have black. We have white. We have grey. And you feel that even though you only know a little about grey, you can take grey, break it down, and partition the black from the white.
Really?
The reason why the pleasure which is not derived from sensuality can hardly be acquired from an emaciated body is that in an emaciated body the self, of necessity, is attracted to the condition of the body, and therefore it is near impossible to focus on anything but the body in that state.
This reveals something important which is that as great as Buddha was he was unable to become completely detached from the material body, so much so that when it was emaciated its demands for food was bugging him so much that he would not focus on the rapture which has nothing to do with sensuality.
Sit down and think about this. It might bring you to your senses.
Buddha tried to do it once he realized what was what. He felt that it could not be maintained as a steady focus in that state, but they were yogis from ancient times who were able to do that, because they were able to shift their attention away from the emaciated body.
One strange case of this was the criminal yogi named Hiranyakashipu who even surprised Brahma, the same deity who met with Buddha. Brahma told Hiranyakashipu that no one in the past and no one in the future will attain the stage of detached body privation which the criminal yogi had achieved. This is in the 7th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam.
Buddha could not do it but a person did it who was thousands of years before him according to the Bhagavata Purana.
Are you aware of this?
The other think here is motive, because Hiranyakashipu’s motive was to get sufficient supernatural power to control the universe.
If he wants to keep on living as a material body, then at this stage of the practice, a yogi would have to begin to nourish the body again, but if he did not feel the need to continue on the physical side, the yogi could kill the body by the continued austerities and then slip away to the place where there is no material body to deal with in the first place and where there is no pleasure from the sensuality which causes anguish which is what motivated Buddha to begin the austerities in the first place.
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Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.'
MiBeloved’s Response:
This means that those five monks realized that Buddha went further in the austerities. They respected that and felt that he might share some insight into how to do the austerities in a more efficient manner.
The austerities are valuable and are mandatory in most cases, but the problem is the motive one has for doing the austerities. If it is to be able to focus on rapture that comes from seclusion, then austerities if they distract one from that and causes one to focus on something else, cannot give the result.
But again that is the particular kind of realization which Buddha achieved. There are various kinds of realizations to be achieved, that is only one of them, the one he mastered.
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"So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.
MiBeloved’s Response:
Notice the word secluded. How is that attained without austerity? Can the average person enter into rapture and pleasure which comes when they are secluded from sensuality and unskillful mental qualities?
For the average person this is not possible without the austerities:
Please read about Acharya Mun. Here is a link:
Then Click on this:
MahaYogin Acharya Mun: Biography
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But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained equanimous, mindful, & alert, and sensed pleasure with the body. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.
MiBeloved’s Response:
These are samadhi states. Tell us how you will attain this after side-stepping the austerities for the physical body. And also please explain to us why Buddha did not get into these states while he was living as a prince in Nepal?
What was lacking then so that he did not develop these samadhi meditative states?
Does the average person have those lacking features? Please explain?
Special Note:
The information above about what happened to Buddha was inspired by this deity of Buddha which is in a temple in South Korea:
Paul 3 years ago
If we consider this Black and White and Gray Analogy a bit more and be honest about it, we have to admit that' really know very very little..and this experience of Gray is significant here, because we come into this life and leave in the Gray..Gray is a mixture of black and white. It's an impure condition. Everything is relative and everything is this combination of different degrees of black and white...We could call Black Ignorance depending on where we are standing when we made this observation.
The Black and White analogy came outside of this field. The fish can't know or understand it's in water. Water is the fish's consciousness just like the limited paradigm's we assemble in order to make some kind of sense out of this relative world. But from inside it we cannot see that it Gray..it doesn't really register as Gray. I feel, this is important, because it's a map that can be used when we endeavor to cross the glitter and gloom of life and not call this gray, something it's not..
MiBeloved 3 years ago
Read about Hiranyakashipu who also starved his body doing yoga and then compare his achievement with Buddha.
It is important to know that Buddha was not the first yogi to do this and others came to completely different realisations because they were motivated by different events in their lives.
This below was copied from Vedabase site.
http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Brahma_(SB_cantos_7_and_8)
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SB 7.3.1: Nārada Muni said to Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira: The demoniac king Hiraṇyakaśipu wanted to be unconquerable and free from old age and dwindling of the body. He wanted to gain all the yogic perfections like aṇimā and laghimā, to be deathless, and to be the only king of the entire universe, including Brahmaloka.
SB 7.3.2: In the valley of Mandara Hill, Hiraṇyakaśipu began performing his austerities by standing with his toes on the ground, keeping his arms upward and looking toward the sky. This position was extremely difficult, but he accepted it as a means to attain perfection.
SB 7.3.3: From the hair on Hiraṇyakaśipu's head there emanated an effulgent light as brilliant and intolerable as the rays of the sun at the time of dissolution. Seeing the performance of such austere penances, the demigods, who had been wandering throughout the planets, now returned to their respective homes.
SB 7.3.4: Because of Hiraṇyakaśipu's severe austerities, fire came from his head, and this fire and its smoke spread throughout the sky, encompassing the upper and lower planets, which all became extremely hot.
SB 7.3.5: Because of the power of his severe austerities, all the rivers and oceans were agitated, the surface of the globe, with its mountains and islands, began trembling, and the stars and planets fell. All directions were ablaze.
SB 7.3.6: Scorched and extremely disturbed because of Hiraṇyakaśipu's severe penances, all the demigods left the planets where they reside and went to the planet of Lord Brahmā, where they informed the creator as follows: O lord of the demigods, O master of the universe, because of the fire emanating from Hiraṇyakaśipu's head as a result of his severe austerities, we have become so disturbed that we could not stay in our planets but have come to you.
SB 7.3.7: O great person, chief of the universe, if you think it proper, kindly stop these disturbances, meant to destroy everything, before all your obedient subjects are annihilated.
SB 7.3.8: Hiraṇyakaśipu has undertaken a most severe type of austerity. Although his plan is not unknown to you, kindly listen as we submit his intentions.
SB 7.3.9-10: "The supreme person within this universe, Lord Brahmā, has gotten his exalted post by dint of severe austerities, mystic power and trance. Consequently, after creating the universe, he has become the most worshipable demigod within it. Since I am eternal and time is eternal, I shall endeavor for such austerity, mystic power and trance for many, many births, and thus I shall occupy the same post occupied by Lord Brahmā.
SB 7.3.11: "By dint of my severe austerities, I shall reverse the results of pious and impious activities. I shall overturn all the established practices within this world. Even Dhruvaloka will be vanquished at the end of the millennium. Therefore, what is the use of it? I shall prefer to remain in the position of Brahmā."
SB 7.3.12: O lord, we have heard from reliable sources that in order to obtain your post, Hiraṇyakaśipu is now engaged in severe austerity. You are the master of the three worlds. Please, without delay, take whatever steps you deem appropriate.
SB 7.3.13: O Lord Brahmā, your position within this universe is certainly most auspicious for everyone, especially the cows and brāhmaṇas. Brahminical culture and the protection of cows can be increasingly glorified, and thus all kinds of material happiness, opulence and good fortune will automatically increase. But unfortunately, if Hiraṇyakaśipu occupies your seat, everything will be lost.
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Continued from above.......
SB 7.3.14: O King, being thus informed by the demigods, the most powerful Lord Brahmā, accompanied by Bhṛgu, Dakṣa and other great sages, immediately started for the place where Hiraṇyakaśipu was performing his penances and austerities.
SB 7.3.15-16: Lord Brahmā, who is carried by a swan airplane, at first could not see where Hiraṇyakaśipu was, for Hiraṇyakaśipu's body was covered by an anthill and by grass and bamboo sticks. Because Hiraṇyakaśipu had been there for a long time, the ants had devoured his skin, fat, flesh and blood. Then Lord Brahmā and the demigods spotted him, resembling a cloud-covered sun, heating all the world by his austerity. Struck with wonder, Lord Brahmā began to smile and then addressed him as follows.
SB 7.3.17: Lord Brahmā said: O son of Kaśyapa Muni, please get up, please get up. All good fortune unto you. You are now perfect in the performance of your austerities, and therefore I may give you a benediction. You may now ask from me whatever you desire, and I shall try to fulfill your wish.
SB 7.3.18: I have been very much astonished to see your endurance. In spite of being eaten and bitten by all kinds of worms and ants, you are keeping your life air circulating within your bones. Certainly this is wonderful.
SB 7.3.19: Even saintly persons like Bhṛgu, born previously, could not perform such severe austerities, nor will anyone in the future be able to do so. Who within these three worlds can sustain his life without even drinking water for one hundred celestial years?
SB 7.3.20: My dear son of Diti, with your great determination and austerity you have done what was impossible even for great saintly persons, and thus I have certainly been conquered by you.
SB 7.3.21: O best of the asuras, for this reason I am now prepared to give you all benedictions, according to your desire. I belong to the celestial world of demigods, who do not die like human beings. Therefore, although you are subject to death, your audience with me will not go in vain.
SB 7.3.22: Śrī Nārada Muni continued: After speaking these words to Hiraṇyakaśipu, Lord Brahmā, the original being of this universe, who is extremely powerful, sprinkled transcendental, infallible, spiritual water from his kamaṇḍalu upon Hiraṇyakaśipu's body, which had been eaten away by ants and moths. Thus he enlivened Hiraṇyakaśipu.
SB 7.3.23: As soon as he was sprinkled with the water from Lord Brahmā's waterpot, Hiraṇyakaśipu arose, endowed with a full body with limbs so strong that they could bear the striking of a thunderbolt. With physical strength and a bodily luster resembling molten gold, he emerged from the anthill a completely young man, just as fire springs from fuel wood.
SB 7.3.24: Seeing Lord Brahmā present before him in the sky, carried by his swan airplane, Hiraṇyakaśipu was extremely pleased. He immediately fell flat with his head on the ground and began to express his obligation to the lord.
SB 7.3.25: Then, getting up from the ground and seeing Lord Brahmā before him, the head of the Daityas was overwhelmed by jubilation. With tears in his eyes, his whole body shivering, he began praying in a humble mood, with folded hands and a faltering voice, to satisfy Lord Brahmā.
SB 7.3.26-27: Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the supreme lord within this universe. At the end of each day of his life, the universe is fully covered with dense darkness by the influence of time, and then again, during his next day, that self-effulgent lord, by his own effulgence, manifests, maintains and destroys the entire cosmic manifestation through the material energy, which is invested with the three modes of material nature. He, Lord Brahmā, is the shelter of those modes of nature — sattva-guṇa, rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa.
SB 7.3.28: I offer my obeisances to the original personality within this universe, Lord Brahmā, who is cognizant and who can apply his mind and realized intelligence in creating this cosmic manifestation. It is because of his activities that everything within the universe is visible. He is therefore the cause of all manifestations.
SB 7.3.29: Your Lordship, being the origin of the life of this material world, is the master and controller of the living entities, both moving and stationary, and you inspire their consciousness. You maintain the mind and the acting and knowledge-acquiring senses, and therefore you are the great controller of all the material elements and their qualities, and you are the controller of all desires.
SB 7.3.30: My dear lord, by your form as the Vedas personified and through knowledge relating to the activities of all the yajñic brāhmaṇas, you spread the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies of the seven kinds of sacrifices, headed by agniṣṭoma. Indeed, you inspire the yajñic brāhmaṇas to perform the rituals mentioned in the three Vedas. Being the Supreme Soul, the Supersoul of all living entities, you are beginningless, endless and omniscient, beyond the limits of time and space.
SB 7.3.31: O my lord, Your Lordship is eternally awake, seeing everything that happens. As eternal time, you reduce the duration of life for all living entities through your different parts, such as moments, seconds, minutes and hours. Nonetheless, you are unchanged, resting in one place as the Supersoul, witness and Supreme Lord, the birthless, all-pervading controller who is the cause of life for all living entities.
SB 7.3.32: There is nothing separate from you, whether it be better or lower, stationary or moving. The knowledge derived from the Vedic literatures like the Upaniṣads, and from all the sub-limbs of the original Vedic knowledge, form your external body. You are Hiraṇyagarbha, the reservoir of the universe, but nonetheless, being situated as the supreme controller, you are transcendental to the material world, which consists of the three modes of material nature.
SB 7.3.33: O my lord, being changelessly situated in your own abode, you expand your universal form within this cosmic manifestation, thus appearing to taste the material world. You are Brahman, the Supersoul, the oldest, the Personality of Godhead.
SB 7.3.34: Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme, who in his unlimited, unmanifested form has expanded the cosmic manifestation, the form of the totality of the universe. He possesses external and internal energies and the mixed energy called the marginal potency, which consists of all the living entities.
SB 7.3.35: O my lord, O best of the givers of benediction, if you will kindly grant me the benediction I desire, please let me not meet death from any of the living entities created by you.
SB 7.3.36: Grant me that I not die within any residence or outside any residence, during the daytime or at night, nor on the ground or in the sky. Grant me that my death not be brought by any being other than those created by you, nor by any weapon, nor by any human being or animal.
SB 7.3.37-38: Grant me that I not meet death from any entity, living or nonliving. Grant me, further, that I not be killed by any demigod or demon or by any great snake from the lower planets. Since no one can kill you in the battlefield, you have no competitor. Therefore, grant me the benediction that I too may have no rival. Give me sole lordship over all the living entities and presiding deities, and give me all the glories obtained by that position. Furthermore, give me all the mystic powers attained by long austerities and the practice of yoga, for these cannot be lost at any time.
SB 7.4.1: Nārada Muni continued: Lord Brahmā was very much satisfied by Hiraṇyakaśipu's austerities, which were difficult to perform. Therefore, when solicited for benedictions, he indeed granted them, although they were rarely to be achieved.
SB 7.4.2: Lord Brahmā said: O Hiraṇyakaśipu, these benedictions for which you have asked are difficult to obtain for most men. Nonetheless, O my son, I shall grant you them although they are generally not available.
SB 7.4.3: Then Lord Brahmā, who awards infallible benedictions, departed, being worshiped by the best of the demons, Hiraṇyakaśipu, and being praised by great sages and saintly persons.
SB 7.4.4: The demon Hiraṇyakaśipu, having thus been blessed by Lord Brahmā and having acquired a lustrous golden body, continued to remember the death of his brother and therefore be envious of Lord Viṣṇu.
SB 7.4.5-7: Hiraṇyakaśipu became the conqueror of the entire universe. Indeed, that great demon conquered all the planets in the three worlds — upper, middle and lower — including the planets of the human beings, the Gandharvas, the Garuḍas, the great serpents, the Siddhas, Cāraṇas and Vidyādharas, the great saints, Yamarāja, the Manus, the Yakṣas, the Rākṣasas, the Piśācas and their masters, and the masters of the ghosts and Bhūtas. He defeated the rulers of all the other planets where there are living entities and brought them under his control. Conquering the abodes of all, he seized their power and influence.
SB 7.4.8: Hiraṇyakaśipu, who possessed all opulence, began residing in heaven, with its famous Nandana garden, which is enjoyed by the demigods. In fact, he resided in the most opulent palace of Indra, the King of heaven. The palace had been directly constructed by the demigod architect Viśvakarmā and was as beautifully made as if the goddess of fortune of the entire universe resided there.
SB 7.4.9-12: The steps of King Indra's residence were made of coral, the floor was bedecked with invaluable emeralds, the walls were of crystal, and the columns of vaidūrya stone. The wonderful canopies were beautifully decorated, the seats were bedecked with rubies, and the silk bedding, as white as foam, was decorated with pearls. The ladies of the palace, who were blessed with beautiful teeth and the most wonderfully beautiful faces, walked here and there in the palace, their ankle bells tinkling melodiously, and saw their own beautiful reflections in the gems. The demigods, however, being very much oppressed, had to bow down and offer obeisances at the feet of Hiraṇyakaśipu, who chastised the demigods very severely and for no reason. Thus Hiraṇyakaśipu lived in the palace and severely ruled everyone.
SB 7.4.13: O my dear King, Hiraṇyakaśipu was always drunk on strong-smelling wines and liquors, and therefore his coppery eyes were always rolling. Nonetheless, because he had powerfully executed great austerities in mystic yoga, although he was abominable, all but the three principal demigods — Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva and Lord Viṣṇu — personally worshiped him to please him by bringing him various presentations with their own hands.
Neo_Yogi 3 years ago
Hello MiBeloved,
Excuse me for not having replied earlier but sometimes one gets busier in this worldly life.
You said:
You are thinking after reading this that you can do this get this understanding integrated into your nature without the gruesome austerities but I am saying that you are kidding yourself. The mere idea that you did not see the value of the austerities which Buddha later rejected, means that you are not mature in this and therefore you cannot get to the understanding by any other means but austerities.
(…) Do you think that the engineer at the aircraft factory who designed the passenger jet can give his understanding and skill to a passenger who rides on the plane, so that the passenger can manufacture and then fly that plane?
Neo_Yogi's Reply:
But I did NOT give my opinion on austerities, MiBeloved; I never said that the austerities were useless. In fact, talking about the Buddha, I wrote:
So after realizing that hard austerities took him nowhere,
I didn't state that the Buddha rejected every single austerity method either. You said that people was wrong thinking that the Buddha got enlightened because of the Middle Way when in fact, he designed it for his followers and I just answered that that's is not what we can read in the early Buddhist texts... and posted an example.
Let me insist: if one reads the Buddhist texts one will see that the Buddha talks about the Middle Way as a path between the extremes of hard austerities and sensual indulgence. Healways compared the spiritual work to playing a stringed instrument. If the strings are too loose or too tight you can't get them to make any sound.
He also added that he re-discovered (not designed) what was lost, that Dhamma which was already taught by other Buddhas in the past.
I know that the Buddha never taught about not doing austerities. As you well said somewhere else in this group, the Buddha never went back to his household life after his enlightenment. He kept on meditating, living in the forest, eating just once a day, doing alms rounds, sleeping on the floor, etc and so he advised to his followers.
Yes, I have read and enjoyed Ajahn Mun Bhuridatta's biography and I know about the dhutanga practices, that's why I believe that austerities are valuable in the way to one's realization.
MiBeloved 3 years ago
So after realizing that hard austerities took him nowhere.
MiBeloved's Response:
This statement is totally false unless it is qualified by explaining that nowhere means nowhere in terms of the objective of getting the pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities. To make that statement like that is totally misleading and many persons were misled by that very statement in the past already.
The first thing one has to do to catalog the benefits he got from the austerities. Once those are listed, then one can begin to list what he did not get, but to say that he got nothing is totally wrong. Either the person who made that statement is ignorant and does not understand the path or the person is trying to mislead others into thinking that their enlightenment can occur without the austerities, which in most cases if totally incorrect, otherwise persons like Acharya Mun would not have done the austerities.
I am going to state it again for your information and for the record, that the Buddha did not become enlightened by following the Middle way. He got there by doing the austerities and then by readjusting himself to attain the objective of getting the pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities.
If you feel that someone else can do this without the austerities it means that you are not in touch with Buddha and you do not understand his personality. First of all no one from this end of existence can do this without the personal assistance of a person like Buddha or the personal guidance of a person like Acharya Mun. It is not going to happen.
Furthermore this means that Buddha or the Acharya-like person must agree to personally supervise that person to guide that person to the exact amount of penance and deprivation of sensuality which is required. If Buddha could not become enlightened without first doing the austerities, nobody else will become enlightening without his personal assistance and micro-managed guidance.
Then the question is:
Will Buddha do this for you or for me?
Let us answer this question before we run off with some Middle way that leads nowhere.
==============
Let me clear this up again:
The Middle way was designed for people who could not initially take up the austerities, who would be afraid of it, and then that person once he begins, he will see for himself that he must do the austerities to be successful and he must do specific austerities, even ones that are different to what Buddha did, because it has to be tailored to his individual sensuality and individual extrovert habits.
So I am making these statements for the record.
==============
There was no need for Buddha to return to civilization. He did that under the influence of the Brahma deity. If you cannot find that in the Pali texts, that is okay. You can say I said that for the record. His mind was already seized by the Brahma deity for him to fulfill the mission for which he took the body which was to design a path that was not as frightening to the average human being.
Furthermore, the whole enlightenment thing about Buddha is a fraud because the guy is a divine being from day one, and his enlightenment is done to set an example not because he needs to be enlightened. He is an avatar. With avatars one has to separate out what they do as example and what they do for themselves.
People who think that everybody is one and that everybody is equal cannot understand anything about avatar and cannot figure what the divine person does which is for example and which he did not need to do but did in an acting role as if he was not an avatar.
Alfredo 3 years ago
Neo:
Please check the book about Acariya Mun. It is here in pdf in the file section.
This is a book that brings tears to my eyes every single time I read it.
A further question: What have the Buddhists following that "middle path", obtained (compared to the Buddha), besides talking about it? Please let me know what that is.
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Continued from above.......
devaPriya Yogini 3 years ago
This is very interesting for me to read.
I can't say that I know one single so called "Buddhist" that even takes the reasonably simple austerity of not partaking in killing by eating meat. Some use the middle way excuse too. I wonder why more don't see the need for moving off the mid path where everyone else is, and on to bigger and better things.
Neo_Yogi 3 years ago
MiBeloved wrote:
If Buddha could not become enlightened without first doing the austerities, nobody else will become enlightening without his personal assistance and micro-managed guidance
Neo_Yogi's Query:
Personal assistance? Could you elaborate on this?
========================
MiBeloved wrote:
Let me clear this up again:
The Middle way was design for people who could not initially take up the austerities, who would be afraid of it, and then that person once he begins, he will see for himself that he must do the austerities to be successful and he must do specific austerities, even ones that are different to what Buddha did, because it has to be tailoredto his individual sensuality and individual extrovert habits.
(…) His mind was already seized by the Brahma deity for him to fulfill the mission for which he took the body which was to design a path that was not as frightening to the average human being.
Neo_Yogi's Reply:
Said like that it sounds like the Buddha's Path is easy for everyone. As with any other spiritual path, one has to make sacrifices for being successful. Not everyone is ready or capable of leaving this worldly life in search for the unknown.
========================
MiBeloved said:
Furthermore, the whole enlightenment thing about Buddha is a fraud because the guy is a divine being from day one, and his enlightenment is done to set an example not because he needs to be enlightened. He is an avatar. With avatars one has to separate out what they do as example and what they do for themselves.
Neo_Yogi's Reply:
In the Pali texts he explains his quest for enlightenment through previous lives, but he never mentions being enlightened already.
Neo_Yogi 3 years ago
Alfredo said:
Neo:
Please check the book about Acariya Mun. It is here in pdf in the file section.
This is a book that brings tears to my eyes every single time I read it.
Neo_Yogi's Reply:
Hello Alfredo,
As I mentioned already, I have read this book and loved it :)
========================
Alfredo said:
A further question: What have the Buddhists following that "middle path", obtained (compared to the Buddha), besides talking about it? Please let me know what that is.
Neo_Yogi's Reply:
I guess that the very same that the followers of Mahavira, Christ, Krishna, etc. get when they only talk about them or their teachings but never get down to business.
MiBeloved 3 years ago
Neo_Yogi's Query:
Personal assistance? Could you elaborate on this?
MiBeloved's Response:
This means what it says that a person has to get assistance from Gautam Buddha himself just as he assisted many of his disciples.
His personal influence has to be there.
He is not physically present except through icons but he can be reached in the subtle existence. This is a particular individual with a particular spiritual influence.
========================
Neo_Yogi's Comment:
In the Pali texts he explains his quest for enlightenment through previous lives, but he never mentions being enlightened already.
MiBeloved’s Response:
It is not the quest for enlightenment that is in question. It is who is pursuing the quest. What sort of spirit is it, from which category of the spirits?
Suppose ten people are taking a war helicopter course but one of these is the grandson of the queen of England, then it is not a matter of just taking the course, it is a matter of who is taking the course.
The grandson of the queen has privileges which the other soldiers are not permitted.
We have to look at who traverses and not the course itself.
Because he is part of the royal family, they have given him a special parachute in event that the chopper goes down and the other soldiers do not have that. And they may never realize that there is a difference in the equipment he is using as compared to their own, unless the chopper goes down.
We find out that Buddha was a different kind of being in the way he reacted to the traumas of physical life, a way in which we usually do not react. We have to stop and think about it before we can give up physical life, and even then we are at a loss of what to do to fix it. So there is no comparison between this individual and ourselves and the sooner we can get into our heads the better we will be.
=========
Even the criminally motivated Hiranyakashipu was recognized by the Brahma deity as not being an ordinary run-of-the-mill kind of spirit and Brahma told him that no one in the past or the future did anything as exceptional as he. So this means that we have to take a look at the who is doing what and not at the what which is being done by who.
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SB 7.3.14: O King, being thus informed by the demigods, the most powerful Lord Brahmā, accompanied by Bhṛgu, Dakṣa and other great sages, immediately started for the place where Hiraṇyakaśipu was performing his penances and austerities.
SB 7.3.15-16: Lord Brahmā, who is carried by a swan airplane, at first could not see where Hiraṇyakaśipu was, for Hiraṇyakaśipu's body was covered by an anthill and by grass and bamboo sticks. Because Hiraṇyakaśipu had been there for a long time, the ants had devoured his skin, fat, flesh and blood. Then Lord Brahmā and the demigods spotted him, resembling a cloud-covered sun, heating all the world by his austerity. Struck with wonder, Lord Brahmā began to smile and then addressed him as follows.
SB 7.3.17: Lord Brahmā said: O son of Kaśyapa Muni, please get up, please get up. All good fortune unto you. You are now perfect in the performance of your austerities, and therefore I may give you a benediction. You may now ask from me whatever you desire, and I shall try to fulfill your wish.
SB 7.3.18: I have been very much astonished to see your endurance. In spite of being eaten and bitten by all kinds of worms and ants, you are keeping your life air circulating within your bones. Certainly this is wonderful.
SB 7.3.19: Even saintly persons like Bhṛgu, born previously, could not perform such severe austerities, nor will anyone in the future be able to do so. Who within these three worlds can sustain his life without even drinking water for one hundred celestial years?
SB 7.3.20: My dear son of Diti, with your great determination and austerity you have done what was impossible even for great saintly persons, and thus I have certainly been conquered by you.
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It was irrelevant as to what Hiranyakashipu did which appeared to be what everyone else does, because the guy was not within the bounds of the Brahma who is the creator-god of this system we exist in. The guy was an alien and Brahma recognized this because the guy was in the process of controlling Brahma’s creation with no reference or authority from Brahma and based only on the guy’s personal creative austerities.
If you do not realize that Buddha was in a different category of spirit, you won’t be able to take his assistance sincerely, and your spiritual progress which is based on his life will be ineffective. Without his personal assistance you won’t make any substantial progress on his path. No one did it during his life time without him or without one of his advanced disciple’s assistance.
A void won’t give that assistance, nor will a nihilistic attitude. Buddha is not a void or a nothing. He is a specific person with specific abilities eternally. He is not dead. He is not out of existence as a person right now. His unique access to transcendental states has not changed and someone else, most other persons do not have it and can only get it by taking assistance from him personally.
Alfredo 3 years ago
Neo:
Fair enough. Good answer. Please keep on asking, many are enjoying the interesting interchange.
As per austerities, without them there is really no real yoga.
