Mergence / An Email Inquiry:
Meditationtime Forum Post
Date: Posted 3 years before May 31, 2016
MiBeloved 3 years ago
Query: In simple term, assuming that the creator has created everything, then it follows that all which was created must be dissolved in the same once.
The creator was not born, always there. Hence, according to me all the system started from origin and part of origin and has to dissolve in origin. In consideration of this give your view regarding your meditative insight about this.
MiBeloved’s Response:
First we have to have the prerequisites and then we can begin. For instance human beings are on planet earth but there were certain prerequisites which are the ecology or environment.
There were initially four realities and each is reality or is perpetual, even though some of these were divested out later.
Those four realities are:
The Supreme Person and divine beings who are parallel divinities.
The limited eternal spirits who are not the Godhead.
The spiritual environment divine world which is the habitat of the divinities.
The super-subtle material energy in its undifferentiated stage which has potential for temporary manifestation.
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We are currently in the downgraded version of the material energy.
Yes, the Supreme Being is involved in the temporarily manifested stage of the material energy but the dissolution of this world causes it to retrogress into the super-subtle material energy not into the Supreme Being.
Thus the idea that this digressed into the Supreme Being and becomes one with that Being is refuted completely.
You next idea that one of us can become permanently unified into a dissolution mergence into the Supreme Being is denied by Krishna Himself in the Bhagavad Gita. But outside of that written statement, consider that the limited eternal spirits are eternally existing and were not created by the Supreme Being. The participation of the Supreme Being in our existence has to do with providing this downgraded world for us to consciously exist in. This world is necessary for us because of failure to perceive the divine environment.
The Supreme Being did not create the individual limited spirits. He is not responsible for that and he is not responsible for their eternal nature either. It is just that they are eternal. Even the material nature in its undifferentiated state is perpetual. That is what is meant by the statement that “All Is Brahman.”
Entry into the body of the Supreme Being can occur as in the case of even asuras, political criminals, like Shishupala but that does not mean that the individual identity of the said spirit is lost or that it has dissolved, because these persons usually appear again in some creation elsewhere. Then the dissolved identity is again particularized or displayed with its unique features.
It is a fact that one spirit can enter into the psyche of another but do not mistake the psyche for the spirit. There is a difference. An embryo is in the body (physical psyche) of its mother, and yet it is not really one with the lady, nor will its mergence condition remain as is forever.
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Email correspondence:
I have some questions- queries :
The Geeta is a live or dead, Dynamic or static document ?
What is the reason, why GOD/nature created everything, it's thy's karma or wish ? why ?
How separate environment , divinity, supreme being present at the start though they are not one, I think that's not possible. If we dissolve in nature or limited souls and not in GOD, then I don't understand further..Pl. explain
MiBeloved’s Response:
Bhagavad Gita by its own standards is dynamic for a few and static for many. Just as there is uranium in many locations on this planet but most of us cannot make use of, so the Bhagavad Gita is available for all to read in Sanskrit but only a few human beings can really fathom its message.
This (my translation) is from the Gita concerning itself:
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Four kinds of good people worship Me, O Arjuna: the distressed one, the inquisitive one, the needy one, and the informed one, O bullish man of the Bharata family. (7.16)
तेषां ज्ञानी नित्ययुक्त
एकभक्तिर्विशिष्यते ।
प्रियो हि ज्ञानिनोऽत्यर्थम्
अहं स च मम प्रियः ॥७.१७॥
teṣāṁ jñānī nityayukta
ekabhaktirviśiṣyate
priyo hi jñānino'tyartham
ahaṁ sa ca mama priyaḥ (7.17)
teṣām — of these; jñānī — the informed man; nityayukta — constantly disciplined in yoga; ekabhaktir = ekabhaktiḥ— one who is singularly devoted; viśiṣyate — is distinguished; priyo = priyaḥ — fond; hi — indeed; jñānino = jñāninaḥ — of the informed person; 'tyartham = atyartham — very; aham — I; sa = sah — he; ca — and; mama — of Me; priyaḥ — fond
Of these, the informed man who is constantly disciplined in yoga, being singularly devoted, is distinguished indeed. I am fond of this person and he is fond of Me. (7.17)
उदाराः सर्व एवैते
ज्ञानी त्वात्मैव मे मतम् ।
आस्थितः स हि युक्तात्मा
मामेवानुत्तमां गतिम् ॥७.१८॥
udārāḥ sarva evaite
jñānī tvātmaiva me matam
āsthitaḥ sa hi yuktātmā
māmevānuttamāṁ gatim (7.18)
udārāḥ — exalted; sarva — all; evaite = eva — indeed + ete — these; jñānī — informed person; tv = tu — but; ātmaiva = ātmā — personal self + eva — indeed; me — of Me; matam — is considered; āsthitaḥ — situated with; sa = saḥ — he; hi — truly; yuktātmā — one who is disciplined in yoga practice; mām — Me; evānuttamām = eva — indeed + anuttamām — supreme; gatim — objective
All these are exalted people. But the informed one is considered to be my personal representative. Indeed, he who is disciplined in yoga practice, is situated with Me as the Supreme Objective. (7.18)
बहूनां जन्मनामन्ते
ज्ञानवान्मां प्रपद्यते ।
वासुदेवः सर्वमिति
स महात्मा सुदुर्लभः ॥७.१९॥
bahūnāṁ janmanāmante
jñānavānmāṁ prapadyate
vāsudevaḥ sarvamiti
sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ (7.19)
bahūnām — of many; janmanām — of births; ante — at the end; jñānavān — the informed devotee; mām — Me; prapadyate — surrenders to; vāsudevaḥ — son of Vasudeva; sarvam — everything; iti — thus; sa = saḥ — he; mahātmā — great soul; sudurlabhaḥ — hard to locate
At the end of many births, the informed devotee surrenders to Me, thinking that the son of Vasudeva is essential to everything. Such a great soul is hard to locate. (7.19)
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Continued from above.......
कामैस्तैस्तैर्हृतज्ञानाः
प्रपद्यन्तेऽन्यदेवताः ।
तं तं नियममास्थाय
प्रकृत्या नियताः स्वया ॥७.२०॥
kāmaistaistairhṛtajñānāḥ
prapadyante'nyadevatāḥ
taṁ taṁ niyamamāsthāya
prakṛtyā niyatāḥ svayā (7.20)
kāmaiḥ — by desires; taistair = taihtaiḥ — by whose, by these, contrary; hṛtajñānāḥ — persons whose experience is overshadowed; prapadyante — they plead with; 'nyadevatāḥ= anyadevatāḥ = anya — other + devatāḥ — supernatural rulers; taṁtam — this or that; niyamam — religious procedures; āsthāya — following; prakṛtyā — by material nature; niyatāḥ — restricted; svayā— by their own
Persons whose experience was overshadowed by contrary desires, plead with other supernatural rulers, following this or that religious procedure, being restricted by their own material nature. (7.20)
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The super-subtle material nature environment, the spiritual world environment, the Supreme Being and the limited entities are all eternal and perpetual. The Supreme Being does not create this.
The creation we are in is a manifestation of the material nature environment. The Supreme Being has some involvement in this but it is more like when a manufacturer uses raw materials to produce a product. The manufacturer does not have to create the raw materials.
The perpetual material nature environment is compared to an eternal banyan tree in this verse of the Bhagavad Gita:
श्रीभगवानुवाच
ऊर्ध्वमूलमधःशाखम्
अश्वत्थं प्राहुरव्ययम् ।
छन्दांसि यस्य पर्णानि
यस्तं वेद स वेदवित् ॥१५.१॥
śrībhagavānuvāca
ūrdhvamūlamadhaḥśākham
aśvatthaṁ prāhuravyayam
chandāṁsi yasya parṇāni
yastaṁ veda sa vedavit (15.1)
śṛī bhagavān — The Blessed Lord; uvāca — said; ūrdhvamūtam = urdhva —upward + mūlam — root; adhaḥśākham = adhaḥ — below + śākham — branch; aśvatthaṁ — ashvattha tree; prāhuḥ — the yogī sages say; avyayam — imperishable; chandāṁsi -Vedic hymns; yasya — or what which; parṇāni — leaves; yaḥ — who; taṁ — this; veda — knows; sa = saḥ— he; vedavit —knower of the Vedas
The Blessed Lord said: The yogi sages say that there is an imperishable Ashvattha tree which has a root going upwards and a trunk downwards, the leaves of which are the Vedic hymns. He who knows this is a knower of the Vedas. (15.1)
अधश्चोर्ध्वं प्रसृतास्तस्य शाखा
गुणप्रवृद्धा विषयप्रवालाः ।
अधश्च मूलान्यनुसंततानि
कर्मानुबन्धीनि मनुष्यलोके ॥१५.२॥
adhaścordhvaṁ prasṛtāstasya śākhā
guṇapravṛddhā viṣayapravālāḥ
adhaśca mūlānyanusaṁtatāni
karmānubandhīni manuṣyaloke (15.2)
Adhaścordhvaṁ = adhaḥ — downward + ca — and + urdhvam — upward; prasṛtāh — widely spreading; tasya — of it; śākhā — branches; guṇa — mundane influence; pravrddhā — nourished; viṣayapravālāḥ = viṣaya — attractive objects + pravālāḥ — sprouts; adhaśca = adhaḥ — below + ca — and; mūlāni — roots;— stretched out; karmānubandhīni = karmā — action + anubandhīni — promoting; manuṣyaloke = manuṣya — of human being + loke — in the world
Branches spread from it, upwards and downwards. It is nourished by the mundane influences and the attractive objects are its sprouts. The roots are spread below, promoting action in the world of human beings. (15.2)
न रूपमस्येह तथोपलभ्यते
नान्तो न चादिर्न च संप्रतिष्ठा ।
अश्वत्थमेनं सुविरूढमूलम्
असङ्गशस्त्रेण दृढेन छित्त्वा ॥१५.३
na rūpamasyeha tathopalabhyate
nānto na cādirna ca saṁpratiṣṭhā
aśvatthamenaṁ suvirūḍhamūlam
asaṅgaśastreṇa dṛḍhena chittvā(15.3)
na — not; rūpam — form; asyeha - asya — of it + iha — in this dimension; tathopalabhyate = tathā — thus + upalabhyate — it is perceived; nānto = nāntah = na —- not + antaḥ — end; na — nor; cādiḥ = ca — and + ādiḥ — end; na — nor; ca — and; saṁpratiṣṭhā — foundation; aśvatthaṁ — ashvattha tree; enam — this; suvirūḍhamūtam = suvirūḍha — well-developed + mūlam — root; asaṅgaśastreṇa = asaṅga — non-attachment + śastreṇa — with the axe; dṛḍhena — with the strong; chittvā — cutting down
Its form is not perceived in this dimension, nor its end, nor beginning nor foundation. With the strong ax of non-attachment, cut down this Ashvattha tree with its well-developed roots. (15.3)
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Continued from above.......
The perpetual spiritual world environment is explained like this:
ततः पदं तत्परिमार्गितव्यं
यस्मिन्गता न निवर्तन्ति भूयः ।
तमेव चाद्यं पुरुषं प्रपद्ये
यतः प्रवृत्तिः प्रसृता पुराणी.॥१५.४॥
tataḥ padaṁ tatparimārgitavyaṁ
yasmingatā na nivartanti bhūyaḥ
tameva cādyaṁ puruṣaṁ prapadye
yataḥ pravṛttiḥ prasṛtā purāṇī(15.4)
tataḥ — then; padaṁ— please; tat— that; parimārgitavyaṁ — to be sought; yasmin — to which; gatā — some; na — not; nivartanti — they return; bhūyaḥ — again; tam — that; eva — indeed; cādyaṁ = ca — and + ādyaṁ — primal; puruṣaṁ — person; prapadye — I take shelter; yataḥ — from whom; pravrttiḥ — creation; prasṛtā — emerged; purāṇī — in primeval limes
Then that place is to be sought, to which having gone, the spirits do not return to this world again. One should think: I take shelter with that Primal Person, from Whom the creation emerged in primeval times. (15.4)
निर्मानमोहा जितसङ्गदोषा
अध्यात्मनित्या विनिवृत्तकामाः ।
द्वंद्वैर्विमुक्ताः सुखदुःखसंज्ञैर्
गच्छन्त्यमूढाः पदमव्ययं तत् ॥१५.५
nirmānamohā jitasaṅgadoṣā
adhyātmanityā vinivṛttakāmāḥ
dvaṁdvairvimuktāḥ sukhaduḥkha-saṁjñair
gacchantyamūḍhāḥ padamavyayaṁ tat (15.5)
nirmāna — devoid of pride ; mohā — confusion; jita — conquered ; saṅga — attachment ; doṣā — faults; adhyātmanityā = adhyātma — Supreme Spirit + nityā — constantly; vinivṛtta — ceased; kāmāḥ — cravings; dvandvaiḥ — by dualities; vimuktāḥ — freed; sukhaduḥkha — pleasure-pain ; saṁjñaiḥ — known as; gacchanti — they go; amūḍḥāḥ — the undeluded souls; padam — place; avyayam — imperishable; tat = tad — that
Those who are devoid of pride and confusion, who have conquered the faults of attachment, who constantly stay with the Supreme Spirit, whose cravings have ceased, who are freed from the dualities known as pleasure and pain, these undeluded souls go to that imperishable place. (15.5)
न तद्भासयते सूर्यो
न शशाङ्को न पावकः ।
यद्गत्वा न निवर्तन्ते
तद्धाम परमं मम ॥१५.६॥
na tadbhāsayate sūryo
na śaśāṅko na pāvakaḥ
yadgatvā na nivartante
taddhāma paramaṁ mama (15.6)
na — not; tat — that; bhāsayate — illuminates; sūryo = sūryaḥ — the sun; na — nor; sasaḥko = śaśāṅkaḥ — moon; na — nor; pāvakaḥ — fire; yat — which; gatvā — having gone; na — never; nivartante — they return; tat — that; dhāmā — residence; paramaṁ — supreme; mama — my
The sun does not illuminate that place, nor the moon, nor the fire. Having gone to that location, they never return. That is My supreme residence. (15.6)
