Mayavada of Shankara - Escape from Samsara through liberation
Meditationtime Forum Post
Date: Posted 5 years before Dec 28, 2017
Alfredo 5 years ago
I posted this on LinkedIn:
[The starting point of the Mayavada of Shankara is the same as Buddhism. Both look at this world as a place from which to escape.
The world is either unreal or illusory, so we must disengage from it, to achieve liberation.
But the critical question that neither Mayavada nor Buddhism can answer is: What is the purpose of this world we live in if there is no final reality or meaning to it? Why Brahman, the ultimate, creates this illusion?
Please think about that and let me know your answer.
Correct, in Mayavada there is no rebirth, really, because there is no reality or immortality of an individual soul. So, the spiritual evolution of the soul is negated, and as such, Karma also is unexplainable at the end.
Since everything is Brahman, how can the illusion exist, since Brahman's consciousness is consciousness of self, meaning he can only be aware of his existence, in its totality?
The Mahavakyas state that "All this is the Brahman", and that "Brahman is one without a second", thus Maya must also be within Brahman, thus there cannot be any illusion, or and illusory world outside Brahman. This argument wrecks the Maya theory. One must conclude then that the world is real.]
Question: In Kriya Yoga teachings of Michael Beloved:
Is the world real?
What is the difference(s) in escape from the material manifestation when compared with the Advaitin's Moksha?
MiBeloved 5 years ago
Question: In Kriya Yoga teachings of Michael Beloved:
Is the world real?
What is the difference(s) in escape from the material manifestation when compared with the Advaitin's Moksha?
MiBeloved's Response:
Don’t bother with my view. Let us look at the Bhagavad Gita. When Arjuna was told to chop at the tree of material existence, he was told that it was an eternal banyan tree. Something that is eternal is just that. It is real.
The realness of it however is not what we are experiencing as temporary objects.
If you study the Gita carefully you will see that sat or reality means that which is perpetually non-changing in terms of manifestation, while asat is that which is perpetually changing in terms of manifestation.
Is the world real?
It sure is!
As for the Advaitin escape route and the one supplied by Krishna; the advaitins are for people who feel that their individuality should be eliminated.
Krishna’s route is for people who feel that their individuality needs to be culled out from material nature and relocated to an environment which has no peril.
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I disagree that the two systems should be pit against each other. It is either you are studying one or the other but they should be posited against each other or compared.
This is a mental game that will lead nowhere.
But if you find that you are attracted to both system, then it is your perplexity and I feel you should suffer through that all by yourself but of course as people say, misery likes company.
Count me out. I can help you to understand Krishna’s system. I might help also with the Advaitin system since I am familiar with it, even though it makes absolutely no sense to me.
Alfredo 5 years ago
Thank you very much for your time and answer!
unlimitedsun 5 years ago
Isn't Brahman effulgence an intermediary step in the attainment of Krishna's proposal?
MiBeloved 5 years ago
Brahman effulgence is an intermediary step once you understand and realize that you are a fragment of it and that you are not its total and never will be.
You must also understand how it is that you are no longer in it, as to what agency caused you to be removed from it.
You must also check to see if you can permanently merge back into it because there is a statement in the Gita which suggest that this is not possible.
Alfredo 5 years ago
MiBeloved wrote:
You must also check to see if you can permanently merge back into it because there is a statement in the Gita which suggest that this is not possible.
Alfredo's Query:
Can you, please, point to this statement in the Gita?
Sri Aurobindo accepted the possibility, but in one letter to his personal doctor and disciple Nirodbharan said that he was, finally, hesitant to accept that.
MiBeloved 5 years ago
न त्वेवाहं जातु नासं
न त्वं नेमे जनाधिपाः ।
न चैव न भविष्यामः
सर्वे वयमतः परम् ॥२.१२॥
na tvevāhaṁ jātu nāsaṁ
na tvaṁ neme janādhipāḥ
na caiva na bhaviṣyāmaḥ
sarve vayamataḥ param (2.12)
na — no; tv (tu) — in fact; eva — alone; aham — I; jātu — ever; na — not; āsam — I did exist; na — nor; tvaṁ — you; neme = na — nor + ime — these; jana-adhipāḥ — rulers of the people; na — not; caiva — and indeed; na — nor; bhaviṣyāmaḥ — we will exist; sarve — all; vayam — we; ataḥ - from now; param — onwards
There was never a time when I did not exist, nor you nor these rulers of the people. Nor will we cease to exist from now onwards. (2.12)
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This means exist as individual living beings.
See this other statement about the fact that once you are parceled out of the brahman effulgence as an individual being in the material world you cannot diminish yourself back into that.
And of course looking at the situation honestly it is very obvious that you are not in control of your existence anyway.
Here is the other verse:
न जायते म्रियते वा कदा चिन्
नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः ।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो
न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे ॥२.२०
na jāyate mriyate vā kadā cin
nāyaṁ bhūtvā bhavitā vā na bhūyaḥ
ajo nityaḥ śāśvato'yaṁ purāṇo
na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre (2.20)
na — not; jāyate — is born; mriyate — dies; vā — either; kadācin — at any time; nāyaṁ = na — nor + ayam — this embodied soul; bhūtvā — having been; bhavitā — will be; vā — or; na — not; bhūyaḥ — again; ajo — birthless; nityaḥ — perpetual; śāśvataḥ — eternal; 'yaṁ = ayam- this; purāṇaḥ — primeval; na- not; hanyate — is killed; hanyamāne — in the act of killing; śarīre — in the body
This embodied soul is not born, nor does it die at any time, nor having existed will it not be. Being birthless, eternal, perpetual and primeval, it is not slain in the act of killing the body. (2.20)
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Nor having existed as an individual soul will it not be individual in the forever future.
Alfredo 5 years ago
Thank you for pointing to the verses, I had read them just 2 days ago.
unlimitedsun 5 years ago
So the whole hula bula between the monists and the dualists comes down to level of perception or advancement!
Scriptural interpretation is habitually too hazy and can be expected to be source of divergence anyways.
MiBeloved 5 years ago
Scriptural interpretation is nonsensical if one uses the books of one sect and distorts these to prove the information of another sect which is contrary.
In other words the Bhagavad Gita is a Dvaita text. Thus using it to support an Advaita view point is nonsensical and cheap.
Why do that? Why not get something written expressly and originally for Advaita to support Advaita?
And the same holds true if we do the opposite which would be to use the Advaita text to prove the Dvaita philosophy.
Colleen 5 years ago
Monists and dualists. Isn't it possible that the larger reality includes some aspects of each (both) and this is just another "Blind men and Elephant" story?
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Continued from above…
MiBeloved 5 years ago
Colleen,
That is already in India under the title of dvaitadvaita and then later there is also what is called inconceivable oneness and difference as Achintyabedabeda tattva by Lord Chaitanya.
So this larger reality is already there in India.
But the best statement about this was given by Krishna to Uddhava who inquired about it. Here is Krishna's opinion on that (my translation):
Uddhava Gita English Chapter 17
The qualified Uddhava said: How many essential factors, were explained by the yogi sages, O Lord of the Universe? Here in this world, I heard that You spoke of nine, eleven, five and three contributory causes. (17.1)
Some explain twenty-six and others twenty-five, some say seven, some nine or some six, some four and others eleven. Some explain seventeen, some sixteen and some thirteen. (17.2)
What is the intention of the yogi sages, in declaring so many varied listings of the essential factors, O immortal One? You may tell us. (17.3)
The Blessed Lord said: According to what the brahmins say; it is proper, since all categories are represented. And what is impossible for those who speak since they are reliant on My bewildering energy; (17.4)
“This is not as you say. It is as I explain.” So it is said by those who argue over the causes, and who are influenced by My potencies which are difficult to transcend. (17.5)
From the cosmic disturbance, the contention of the disputants regarding the subject, is caused. When one attains tranquility and sense control, the argument vanishes. And after that the dispute ends. (17.6)
O best of the personalities, it is due to mutual inter-penetration of the essential factors, that the enumeration of cause and effect is described according to the particular speaker who desires to explain it. (17.7)
Even in one category, all other factors are seen to be included, either in the previous cause or in the latter effect. (17.8)
Therefore we accept the previous cause and latter effect given by those who are eagerly contending, just as it is figured out by their mouth due to the reasons of relativity. (17.9)
Due to a lack of mystic experience or accurate intuition, a person who is endowed with a beginningless ignorance, must acquire the in-depth knowledge of the spirit, from another person who knows the factors of reality and who gives true information. (17.10)
In this case, there is not the least difference, between the individual soul and God. This idea of a separate factor is considered futile. And knowledge is regarded as a feature of material nature. (17.11)
The Primal Material Nature is the equilibrium of the diversified mundane energy, which is not a part of the spirits, and which are defined as the clarifying, impulsive and retardative influences. These are the causes of maintenance, origination and destruction respectively. (17.12)
It is stated that knowledge is the outcome of the clarifying influence. Cultural activity comes from the impulsive force. Ignorance is derived from the retardative influence. Time is regarded as the agitator of the mundane energy. Personal tendency springs from the sexually-charged cosmic force. (17.13)
Spirit, imperceptive material nature, perceptible material nature, the sense of assertion, outer space, planetary atmosphere, light, liquid and solid substances, are the nine factors declared by Me. (17.14)
Hearing ability, touching sense, vision, smelling sense and tasting sense are detecting potencies. Vocal cords, hands, sexual organ, anus and legs are working organs, O friend. The mind belongs to both categories. (17.15)
Sound, surface, flavor, odor and shape are the categories of sensual pursuit. Movement, speech, sexual arousal, excretion and manual dexterity are the skills of the working organs. (17.16)
In the beginning of this creation, material nature appearing as causal energy and producing forms, through the varied mundane influences, such as the clarifying force and the other features, exhibited itself. But the primal spirit, unchanged as it is, observes this. (17.17)
The essential factors such as the causal energy and the other components, while being transformed, and being surcharged with potencies by the observational powers of the Primal Person, combine and form the enclosed universe. This is due to the potency which developed in material nature. (17.18)
It is said in yet another view, that there are seven factors, consisting of five physical states beginning with outer space, together with mental knowledge and the self who is the reference point of both factors. From these seven factors, the body, sense organs and vital energy emerges. (17.19)
It is said in this other view, that there are six factors, namely the five physical states and the sixth which is the Supreme Person. Being endowed with those five elements, which were produced from Himself, and having created this world, He entered it. (17.20)
If even as some state, there are four factors, like light producing-combustion, liquids, solids, together with the self from which they are produced; then by these the manifestation of the productions emerged. (17.21)
In the listing of seventeen factors, the gross elements, subtle ones, the five sense organs, the five working organs, the one mind and the soul, are traditionally accounted as the seventeen components. (17.22)
Similarly, in the listing of sixteen factors, there is the spirit which is identified only as the mind. Then there is the listing of thirteen factors which are the five gross elements, the five sense organs, the mind and the soul. (17.23)
In the list of eleven factors, this soul, the five universal gross elements, and the five sensory powers are accounted, while the eight exhibitions of material nature and the primal personality alone are accounted as nine factors. (17.24)
Thus the various listings of the contributing factors were proposed by the yogi sages. All of these are logical because of scientific research. What lacks relevance in the ideas of those who are learned? (17.25)
