Man compared to Animal
Meditationtime Forum Post
Date: Posted 6 years before Nov 25, 2018
MiBeloved 6 years ago
Jettins,
I thought to begin a new post about the man and animal bit in regards to the video about the eagle and the goats.
So in terms of your astral projection experiences how do you regard this:
How do you gage the difference between man and animal?
Psychically speaking, what is the difference?
What does man have in his astral body that the animal does not have?
Or does the animal have an astral body at all?
Are you saying that the animal cannot plot and scheme and do deliberate violence like the human?
In Christianity it is said that the animals have no soul only the human beings?
Have you found evidence to support that in your astral travels?
Jettins 6 years ago
MiBeloved's query:
How do you gage the difference between man and animal?
Jettins' reply:
There is no difference, except that souls while in human bodies have a more complex brain, this causes human beings to develop or evolve differently than the animal.
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MiBeloved's query:
Psychically speaking, what is the difference?
Jettins' reply:
You could see animals as another class of spirits. They are essentially made of the same substance but evolving differently. This means that they can use psychic abilities to the level their chemistry allows them to develop. It’s very interesting with animals because it appears that their brains are attuned to higher psychic abilities because random thought do not block intuition, unlike humans.
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MiBeloved's query:
What does man have in his astral body that the animal does not have?
Jettins' reply:
Every life form has a consciousness an astral equivalent. A better question would be: what is the difference between the consciousness’s of the different life forms.
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MiBeloved's query:
Are you saying that the animal cannot plot and scheme and do deliberate violence like the human?
Jettins' reply:
No, I am saying that the motive for the behavior needs to be analyzed. In the video of the eagle I was not generalizing. I was making an observation that in this particular case the animal appears not to have the level of awareness due to its brain chemistry to make the moral choice. It wasn’t driven by the need to conquer or do dominate, it was driven be the need to survive. In other words, it wasn’t intentionally trying to be cruel. Deliberate violent behavior like humans is seen every day in the animal kingdom. You can see it when they claim their territory. Now a better question would have been: how should we judge the behavior of lower animals. And bacteria and viruses.
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MiBeloved's query:
In Christianity it is said that the animals have no soul only the human beings?
Jettins' reply:
I am particularly not interested in what Christianity has to say on this sort of thing. There is a documentary called “Around the world in 80 faiths” you can get an idea of the things that are believed around the world. I will listen intently to the beliefs and cultures that appear to know about dreams and how they can work with them. After my astral experience one thing I know for certain is that not going the inner route to understand is for children and story books. Not to undermine Christianity, they have a beautiful astral dimension indeed. I am more interested in what I can create for myself than what others have created for themselves. I reserve the right to change my thoughts at any point without notifying anyone about it.
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MiBeloved's query:
Have you found evidence to support that in your astral travels?
Jettins' reply:
Of animals I don’t remember specifically but yes, but trees I remember very well. I’ve been to the abstract realms where the trees where alive and conscious. Their sense of existence is completely different and to translate to a human perspective creates errors in translation. I would say that they are indeed alive and aware yet existing in a totally different frequency band in a sense. To me it looked like plants in exaggerated abstract forms suspended on the ether. They gave me the perception that they were aware of me, which in turn helped so that I would be able to perceive that they could see which then created eyes all around their leaves. An interesting back and forth allowed me to have a glimpse on their reality. I also noticed they were on the defensive side, possibly afraid.
MiBeloved 6 years ago
Jettins wrote:
There is no difference, except that souls while in human bodies have a more complex brain this causes human souls to develop or evolve differently than the animal.
MiBeloved's Response:
human souls? how is that in reference to animal souls?
You said that the eagle was not deliberately violent to the goats how is that in reference to the goats who were trying to chase the eagle away. Were the goats thinking that out or is that just an instinct without any mental deliberation.
In the case where the eagle landed near one goat on a ledge and then grabbed the goat by its hind leg and fly off with it, was that just done by instinct or was that mentally calculated.
Jettins 6 years ago
replace human souls with human beings
Souls while in human bodies have a more complex brain this causes human beings to develop differently than animal souls while in animal bodies.
more details on the post.
MiBeloved 6 years ago
Jettins wrote:
Souls while in human bodies have a more complex brain this causes human beings to develop differently than animal souls while in animal bodies.
MiBeloved's Response:
Not clear on what an animal soul is!
For instance, it can be said that human infants do not have a developed brain in comparison to human adults, then does your explanation apply to mean that the human infants develop differently than the human adults?
Jettins 6 years ago
Everything is mentally calculated, but this doesn't imply that this calculated act was a form of cruelty. Again, the motive and ability to make choices needs to be added in order to determine if it was cruel or not. In this case, the eagles motive is survival. The eagles choice is limited because of brain capacity and limited ability to modify behavior. The eagles choice is also limited because if it doesn't use its advantages of flight it will probably be killed in the ground.
The goat might use the same method to determine survival, only real difference is that in this case it was planned by the eagle. This would imply that when the animals hunt other animals it is cruel, maybe so. This would mean that when a whale in the ocean opens his mouth to eat fish then is cruel. The whale mentally calculated it after all.
We can't hold these animals up to the same standards as humans because we can't talk them out of their behavior. If we imagine we are the animals of course there is cruelty, we wouldn't want the animal to suffer. But I am not looking at it from a human or animal perspective, I am looking it as things are. It is what they must do in order to exist until they can evolve out of it.
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MiBeloved wrote:
It can be said that human infants do not have a developed brain in comparison to human adults, then does your explanation apply to mean that the human infants develop differently than the human adults?
Jettins' reply:
Your question implies the answer.
If human infants haven't developed their brain long enough as human adults have, how does this mean that they develop differently?
That would be like saying that if you put a mango in the ground to grow it will develop to be an avocado tree. The mango tree as human beings can be at different stages in their growth process.
I think some people have existed in animal bodies in the past, therefore had animal souls. This would explain many interesting things.
MiBeloved 6 years ago
Your statement, if you read it carefully implies that they will never evolve out of it, due to their limited brain capacity, so your ideas are not conclusive because of these contradictions. How will it ever evolve out of it, if it has the limitations which you establish?
Now the idea of holding them to the same standards as humans is your idea, even though you may have surmised that this is my idea.
To clear that up let me state, that my concern is how nature holds these animals to certain standards.
I am concerned with nature's reactions to their acts not human reaction.
For instance an infant who is say 3 days of age have not had time to form a conscience, we usually assume and still even though the infant is in that condition, if it puts its hand into fire, it will be burnt. This is not a human judgment, it is a judgment and imposed penalty by nature immediately. That is what I am talking about, not the human scene.
But most people do not think that nature can judge, but that is what I am saying which is the Nature does judge and Nature does impose penalties. I am saying that Nature is biased and prejudices and the ones who will succeed in this evolution are those who can correctly presuppose how nature will react to his or her actions.
Usually people misunderstand me and reject what I am saying because they have an axe to grind with humanly imposed standards but that is a hasty conclusion about the basis of my arguments.
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Please explain further your view about how the eagle will evolve.
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Apart from that and to be fair to you in this debate, my position is this:
The soul using that eagle body is cruel and hard hearted. In fact when it evolves out of bird species, what I say will be proven, because it will carry those propensities over to the human transmigration which it will attain, and there it will become a person of the ruling class and of the martial class of human beings, and then it will wage war and violence in human society. At that point nobody will care a hoot about your arguments.
The other blatant manifestation of this cruelty is the fact that the eagle consciously knows that it has the edge because of the cliff habitat of the goats. It knows its advantage which is diamond-hard claws, super-sharp beak and wide wing spread. It knows that the goat is in disadvantage and it plans how to exploit that situation.
The goats on the other hand have become aware of their disadvantage and know that they cannot compensate for it, because nature just has not equipped them to do so. They are totally helpless in this regard even though they try to use their toy weapons in the form of horns and hardened forehead.
So what is the situation? It is this:
It is the same kind of soul in each of these bodies. There is no such thing as animal soul or human soul. It is soul and it uses human or animal bodies and is limited to the facilities nature affords in each of the forms.
Some of the facilities of one form are definitely inferior to the facilities in another form and this is why there is advantage and disadvantage in the struggle for evolution.
The souls are all cruel and I am passing judgment here and don’t even try to put your finger on this.
It is cruelty in this existence every step of the way. This is why Buddha said that it was all suffering or emotional anguish. This is why he wanted out. He recognized it and was not afraid to speak about it.
Are the goats innocent?
Hell no, they are taking advantage of the shrubs and grass. They lord-it over the vegetation and never give the vegetation any chance. Have you ever had goat in a pastures or in a field. They spare nothing which is vegetation. They will eat it until there is nothing to eat. They are very greedy and I am again passing judgment and don’t say a word.
Recently with the aid of science, we are hearing that trees actually develop sap poisons and odors just to stave off the cruelty of the pastoral animals and numerous bugs which would eat them to extinction.
Some plants developed thorns and spines which are weapons which they create, actual defensive weapons to stave off anything which wants to eat their bodies.
In my view, the eagle is vicious. I would not want to be around when that specific eagle which dumped that goat and then swooped down to eat it, comes into the human species as the member of a MAFIA or as a general running an invasion into another country.
Another Al Capone, or Hitler!!
In the Bhagavad Gita when Krishna explained about the souls taking bodies, and that these souls were more or less similar, Arjuna screamed out that he could not see this similarity which Krishna discussed. This is because we are spell-bound by the body the soul uses and we do not see the soul. So then we speak of animal soul, human soul and so on.
Here are some verses:
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Continued from above…
सर्वभूतस्थमात्मानं
सर्वभूतानि चात्मनि ।
ईक्षते योगयुक्तात्मा
सर्वत्र समदर्शनः ॥६.२९॥
sarvabhūtasthamātmānaṁ
sarvabhūtāni cātmani
īkṣate yogayuktātmā
sarvatra samadarśanaḥ (6.29)
sarvabhūtastham — existing in all mundane creature forms; ātmānaṁ — spirit; sarvabhūtāni — all creatures; cātmani = ca — see + ātmani — in the self; īkṣate — he sees; yogayuktātmā — one who is proficient in yoga; sarvatra — in all cases; samadarśanaḥ — seeing the same
With a spirit existing in every creature, and with every creature based on a spirit, a person who is proficient in yoga, perceives the same existential arrangement in all cases. (6.29)
यो मां पश्यति सर्वत्र
सर्वं च मयि पश्यति ।
तस्याहं न प्रणश्यामि
स च मे न प्रणश्यति ॥६.३०॥
yo māṁ paśyati sarvatra
sarvaṁ ca mayi paśyati
tasyāhaṁ na praṇaśyāmi
sa ca me na praṇaśyati (6.30)
yo = yaḥ — who; mām — me; paśyati — sees; sarvatra — in all forms; sarvam — all creatures; ca — and; mayi — in Me; paśyati — sees; tasyāham = tasya — his + aham — I; na — never; praṇaśyāmi — I am out of range; sa = saḥ — he; ca — and; me — my; na — never; praṇaśyati — he is out of view
To him who sees Me in all forms and who sees all creatures in reference to Me, I am never out of range, and he is never out of My view. (6.30)
सर्वभूतस्थितं यो मां
भजत्येकत्वमास्थितः ।
सर्वथा वर्तमानोऽपि
स योगी मयि वर्तते ॥६.३१॥
sarvabhūtasthitaṁ yo māṁ
bhajatyekatvamāsthitaḥ
sarvathā vartamāno'pi
sa yogī mayi vartate (6.31)
sarvabhūtasthitam — existentially situated in all creatures; yo = yaḥ — who; māṁ — Me; bhajaty = bhajati — he honors; ekatvam — in harmony; āsthitaḥ — established; sarvathā — in various circumstances; vartamāno = vartamānaḥ — existentially situated; 'pi = api — although; sa = saḥ — he; yogī — yogi; mayi — in Me; vartate — he remains in touch
Although moving in various circumstances, the yogi who is established in that harmony, who honors Me as being existentially situated in all creatures, remains in touch with Me. (6.31)
आत्मौपम्येन सर्वत्र
समं पश्यति योऽर्जुन ।
सुखं वा यदि वा दुःखं
स योगी परमो मतः ॥६.३२॥
ātmaupamyena sarvatra
samaṁ paśyati yo'rjuna
sukhaṁ vā yadi vā duḥkhaṁ
sa yogī paramo mataḥ (6.32)
ātmaupamyena = ātma — self + aupamyena — by reference; sarvatra — in all cases; samaṁ — similarity; paśyati — he sees; yo = yaḥ — who; 'rjuna = arjuna — Arjuna; sukhaṁ — pleasurable sensations; vā — or; yadi — regardless; vā — or; duḥkhaṁ — painful sensations; sa = saḥ — he; yogī — yogi; paramo = paramaḥ — highest; mataḥ- considered as
He who, in reference to himself, sees the same facilities in all cases, regardless of pleasure or painful sensations, he, O Arjuna, is considered as the highest yogi. (6.32)
अर्जुन उवाच
योऽयं योगस्त्वया प्रोक्तः
साम्येन मधुसूदन ।
एतस्याहं न पश्यामि
चञ्चलत्वात्स्थितिं स्थिराम् ॥६.३३॥
arjuna uvāca
yo'yaṁ yogastvayā proktaḥ
sāmyena madhusūdana
etasyāhaṁ na paśyāmi
cañcalatvātsthitiṁ sthirām (6.33)
Arjuna — Arjuna; uvāca — said; yo = yah — who; 'yaṁ = ayaṁ — this; yogas — yoga practices; tvayā — by you; proktaḥ — explained; sāmyena — by comparative similarity; madhusūdana — O slayer of Madhu; etasyāhaṁ = etasyā — of this + aham — I; na — not; paśyāmi — see; cañcalatvāt — due to shiftiness; sthitiṁ — position; sthirām — standard
Arjuna said: O slayer of Madhu, due to a shifty vision, I do not see this standard position of a comparatively similar view which is yielded by this yoga practice, declared by You. (6.33)
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Here is a commentary to verse 29. This is all from chapter 6 of Bhagavad Gita:
Commentary:
This is a choice verse. Most of the yogis like this particular verse which sums up the resulting vision of an accomplished ascetic. Samadarśanah means seeing the same thing in all cases (sarvatra). However, this verse was greatly misunderstood. The enthusiasm of the commentators in regards to this verse, has to do not so much with the spiritual perception described, but rather with the promise of that equal vision. Some yogis desperately try to attain that equality of vision. They feel uncomfortable with the disparities of material existence.
In an effort to equalize all things, even God, some yogis use this verse to explain their belief that all entities are one and that all are either the equivalent of or the substratum of God or the Supreme Reality.
This commentator, however, is set apart from all this. Readers are now requested to consider the explanation of this verse with great care and patience:
Bhūta means body or being. The word body, however, usually is understood in the limited way as a material body. Even though a living material body is a bhūta, still the word has a broader meaning. Bhuta means a mundane form either of a gross or subtle or causal description. It is not limited to the gross level we perceive. For instance, a living body is a bhūta. But if that specific body dies, the surviving invisible subtle form is also a bhūta. And if that subtle form were destroyed, what would remain as a causal form would be a bhūta.
In any or all of these forms, there is spirit. Spirits are the basis of form. God is the overall supervisor but the actual direct basis of the individual forms is the individual spirits who predominate in them. We can understand this by studying the modern situation of automobile ownership. The manufacturer is certainly the master of all cars produced by his factory, but he does not drive every vehicle personally. The vehicles are controlled by the individual users. They are the basis. Even though a manufacturer invented and produced the vehicle, he is still not the basis. Let us consider this further. The manufacturer makes the vehicles on the basis of a need of the potential users. So even in the formative state, the potential users of those cars are the basis. Even though the users neither invent nor produce cars, still they are the basis because the manufacturer creates the item on the basis of the need of those users.
The Supreme Lord produces the creature forms, but this is done on the basis of our needs. In the Gītā, Lord Krishna states flatly that He does not want nor does He ever need anything in the material world. We may then ask: Why does He claim to create the world? Why should someone create something that He does not desire? The answer: A responsible person must fulfill the legitimate needs of dependants. It is his duty.
The yogi who developed the mystic vision by yoga austerity, begins to see mystically that in each configuration of gross creature forms, there is a spirit. He also sees that the same spirit is the basis of the form. This does not mean that all the forms are one nor that all the souls or spirits are one. We do not endorse that opinion which became popular. But rather it means that there is a similar act of a soul as a possessor and a basic user of each of the forms. All the users of individual cars are not one nor are all cars one, nor are the ideas in the minds of the users all one, but rather, there is a common factor of having one driver for each car.
Each body has special hookup points whereby any spirit can be connected psychically to the subtle equipments or nervous system for using that particular form. This is compared to cars which have seats, steering wheels and other suitable equipments which make the vehicles serviceable to human beings. After he sees the similarities, the yogi becomes happy to know that the same existential arrangement is available within a species.
Jettins 6 years ago
MiBeloved wrote:
Your statement, if you read it carefully implies that they will never evolve out of it, due to their limited brain capacity, so your ideas are not conclusive because of these contradictions.
Jettins' reply:
There aren't contradictions in my statements. There are only contradictions on how you understand me. I will restate it.
If human infants haven't developed their brain long enough as human adults have, how does this mean that they develop differently?
That would be like saying that if you put a mango in the ground to grow it will develop to be an avocado tree. The mango tree as human beings can be at different stages in their growth process.
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I think some people have existed in animal bodies in the past, therefore had animal souls. This would explain many interesting things.
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MiBeloved wrote:
Now the idea of holding them to the same standards as humans is your idea, even though you may have surmised that this is my idea.
Jettins' reply:
I never said it was your idea. Your logic is impossible sometimes.
MiBeloved 6 years ago
MiBeloved wrote:
Now the idea of holding them to the same standards as humans is your idea, even though you may have surmised that this is my idea.
Jettins' reply:
I never said it was your idea. your logic is impossible sometimes.
MiBeloved's Response:
Okay if you never said, nor implied that, nor felt that way, then there is no need to consider the statement. Move on from there, tend to things which make sense to you.
Jettins 6 years ago
MiBeloved wrote:
Usually people misunderstand me and reject what I am saying because they have an axe to grind with humanly imposed standards
Jettins reply:
I am not rejecting what our saying. From the logic you applied to me earlier, then this might be what you are implying. I will give you the benefit of the doubt every single time because I can very easily misunderstand based on my biased. You do the same based on your biased. This is just fine. But if I try to re-state what you believe, and you try to restate what I believe it is very likely that your bias will get the best of you. This happened on the other post. You assumed that I wanted to leave the forum based on the assumption that I didn't care If you meant it as an insult or not. Intention is very important to me, and misunderstanding is very easy. I so try not to restate your beliefs because of the complexity of such a summation.
Alfredo 6 years ago
I have been following this conversation, and I find it very interesting and informative, and thank you both for it, and hope to see more of it.
For me the greatest teaching I am getting, the gist of the discussion so far, and the tremendous conclusion is the idea - or fact - that there are "souls" and that they transmigrate back and forth into different entities, and they carry with them certain propensities, certain behaviours.
Dean 6 years ago
I agree with Alfredo. All of us on this forum have something to gain from viewing this debate.
Jettins 6 years ago
Haha, that's funny Dean. I didn't start this discussion regarding my thoughts on animal souls into human bodies, I barely said a sentence about this. I didn't go into it here because I wasn't asked a direct question about it haha. But I guess it was the point of it all. I should have figured.
By the way, I wrote a very long post regarding this particular subject a few months back. Since I've wrote this I have experienced so much more. It's interesting because it goes into animal souls and a possible way into determining their true origin.
If people like this topic, I can re-post the link below into this site, then I can do a follow up post into more observations. These ideas are based on empirical observations while in the astral, if this is even possible to do in the Astral is debatable. But I have attempted to analyze this particular topic in such a way. It will go into a practical approach or the thought process that can help someone in real time, while in the Astral Realms find their animal spirits.
Alfredo 6 years ago
Jettins wrote:
[Haha, that's funny Dean. I didn't start this discussion regarding my thoughts on animal souls into human bodies, I barely said a sentence about this.]
Alfredo's reply:
Realize that it may not be you from whom we want to hear and learn firstly.
Dean 6 years ago
Jettins wrote:
If people like this topic, I can re-post the link below into this site, then I can do a follow up post into more observations. These ideas are based on empirical observations while in the astral, if this is even possible to do in the Astral is debatable. But I have attempted to analyze this particular topic in such a way.
Dean's comment/question: Jettins your conclusion of your post was:
This Post assumes animal spirit entities exist, have limited growth potential and conscious evolution that do not parallel those of human spirits. That is to say that animal souls do not have higher selves or evolving selves. If this assumption is incorrect, then this writing would be incomplete. It also assumes that Independent Animal Spirit Entities can exist and the best way to identify them is by what they revile at the emotional level of communication.
I do not feel there is any reason to doubt your empirical observations in the astral on this topic and also I have no doubt that is possible to debate this in the Astral. From my own astral experiences, I have learned not to second guess my observations however my conclusions to those observations will change based on the level of the dimension in which I am observing. So may question to you is, have any of your subsequent astral observations/experiences caused you to draw a different conclusion on this topic?
Jettins 6 years ago
Alfredo, I don't care if anyone learns form me, believe me if I wanted this I would be in noob forums or promoting myself. I am not here to be anyone's professor. People need to learn to experience things on their own. I come to share me experiences and give you my insights on them, and not to try to bust people’s beliefs (not implying that people here want to do this). I become satisfied when I can share, not when I can persuade or sell. My style of expression is because I am passionate and sincere in regards to Astral Projection and because I have gained knowledge from my experiences, and not because I am looking for attention. I will leak my books on the internet after I write them so that more people can have access to them (not implying that anyone else should). Since I won’t charge in the realms when I help someone, might as well start now.
Dean, I still think the same things about it now. Some of my observations can be mistaken. Why? because I don't get my information from books that cannot be mistaken. I use books only to analyze my experiences, I haven't experienced everything. I do it the hard way in a sense, finding interesting surprises that I can learn from time to time. I will make more observations in my future posts regarding this Dean.
Have a great day!
