Group Yoga

Meditationtime Forum Post

Date:  Posted 5 years before Feb 07, 2018

MiBeloved 5 years ago

Early this morning on the astral side, Swami Muktananda discussed the feature of teaching yoga to individuals as compared to teaching yoga to groups of people. He made this statement:

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Yoga is individualistic. It is not a group effort. Even if one teaches to a large group, unless the teacher zeroes in on the individual student and deals with that student’s level of progress and capacity for advancement, the higher yoga cannot be practiced by that student.

Most of the ancient yoga texts speak to a single student. The histories of yoga in the Puranas have to do with individuals who practice either with good or bad motives.

In modern times, we have seen the class structure for teaching yoga to many at the same time. Some teachers even have tens of students or hundreds of students. Can you imagine a physician or a therapist treating tens of patients with the same treatment and curing all of them?

Colleen 5 years ago

Swami Muktananda's statement:

[Can you imagine a physician or a therapist treating tens of patients with the same treatment and curing all of them?]

Colleen's reply:

Well, that is what modern medicine is trying to do, but it doesn't work very well.

Yoga as per your definition, Michael, probably cannot be taught in a group. It is definitely specific, and "graduate" level focused. But, for the beginner, a group is probably better than nothing. It is still an individual endeavor, and the teacher is there to offer alternatives according to ability and lays a groundwork for more advanced practice should the student desire it. So, let us enjoy our "kindergarten." I think it has a place.

MiBeloved 5 years ago

Colleen,

I agree that group yoga has its place.

Still it is not the original method. There is no evidence in the history of yoga about group methods. There were ashrams but students were taught individually with a tailored method given by an advanced yogi.

Yoga as it is defined today is not the same as it was before. For instance we see that B.K.S. Iyengar taught yoga to thousands of people and had large group classes but his teacher did not do it in that way. For one thing his teacher did not teach women. In fact the first woman he taught was a Western woman and he hesitated to do it, because before him that was not done. His teacher actually rejected the woman initially and then later under pressure from the King of that part of India, the teacher agreed.

Now in the developed countries, the majority of teachers and students of yoga are females.

However if you check you will find that the process before by the main teachers was a male kriya system. The kriyas for females in many cases are completely different due to difference in physiology and psychology.

And there are very few teachers who know the female kriyas because the head honcho of that system is the Goddess Durga, Shiva’s wife, and she is not easily contacted for instructions. And there is no physical lineage from her which is here on earth right now, even though there are still male lineages from Lord Shiva.

There is little evidence to support females doing yoga for the purpose which it was originally intended. This also means that yoga today has to be different to what it was before especially in terms of the objective of doing it.

This is all reduced to one thing which is that yoga as it is defined today is not the same as before.

Iyengar guruji did not teach yoga by the definition given by Patanjali. What he taught them was only asana postures which is only one of the eight parts of yoga. He himself admitted that he did not do the four higher stages of yoga for many years and that he was only concerned about his physical health which is why he began yoga in the first place.

Iyengar also did not insist nor introduce the first two steps of yoga which are yama moral restraints and niyama approved behaviors. So in fact he was not teaching yoga but it came to be that in the developed countries where nearly everyone thinks that what he taught was yoga.

If you are telling people that is yoga then that is okay, but I would not define it in that way to anyone.

Colleen 5 years ago

Michael, It isn't my definition of Yoga. I am simply going with the common vernacular. I am keenly aware of the differences. I just don't know what to do about it. All I know is that I started "Yoga" to improve my physical health and it worked, and my interest in it has brought me to you and others who are sharing their definitions with me. You have, however, answered a question for me, inadvertently. As I have observed you and other men engaged in this process, it has in some ways seemed alien to me and now I know that this Yoga is somewhat gender specific. That makes sense from a practical point of view, but it brings up a question about the "fate" of women. Is it reasonable that only men may prepare for this kind of liberation, or is it just harder for them and they require additional work? I'm a little tongue-in-cheek here, but I think that you probably understand my question and its meaning.

MiBeloved 5 years ago

Colleen,

If we are going to get along the first thing that I am going to ask is for you to use the correct terminology and not add to the already existing confusion about what yoga is.

If you are doing asana posture, then say that you are doing asana postures. Do not use the word yoga. Asana postures are not yoga. It is only one part of yoga and really it is perhaps the easiest part of it.

Suppose I tell you that I have a computer for sale. Then when you come to my place to view it, I show you a rodent mouse and quote the price I desire for it, what will you say?

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So one of your statements should read like this:

All I know is that I started "asana postures, which is just one of the parts of yoga," to improve my physical health and it worked.

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Your Question:

Is it reasonable that only men may prepare for this kind of liberation, or is it just harder for them and they require additional work?

MiBeloved's Response:

I am not sure that I grasp the gist of the question, but you can continue the inquiry if I failed to address it.

First of all let us look at this as a historic progression and not as a set plot, like on a Broadway play where the script is already written and the actors must use the text they are given.

According to the Vedic histories, yoga was begun in this creation by a being, a primal being, the deity Brahma. It is said that he discovered himself on a lotus flower on a turbulent cosmic sea in a cosmic hurricane.

Because of the extent of the hostile environment, he became somewhat afraid. It says in the Puranas, then he then instinctively closed his eyes and began to meditate. In some other readings it says that he was inspired by a sound which he heard which said the word tapa in the language which he knew. Tapa means austerity. It comes from a Sanskrit root work which means to burn or put the fire. So after hearing this, Brahma felt that someone was instructing him to do introspection. Thus he closed his eyes and began to meditate.

Then later when the creation got going, the leaders who were male beings also took up meditation.

There is no story about Brahma doing asana postures and the like initially. He was sitting in this lotus posture though and what he did was what is called samyama in the Yoga Sutras which is the three higher stages of yoga as one sequential practice.

Gender-specific is your term. Finally you used a term which I can agree with. So in that sense of the history of how yoga came to be practiced, it was gender specific because it was done by males.

Colleen 5 years ago

Correct terminology? The building I walk into for my classes, says "Yoga Center" on it. So, perhaps the confusion is not mine. It seems that there is no one capable of teaching women the proper techniques, so either we are a lost cause or we don't need it. That is the only conclusion that I seem to be able to draw, assuming that what you are saying is correct.

MiBeloved 5 years ago

Yoga as the eight staged process described by Patanjali can be discovered afresh, just as if we went to another planet and found primitive people, we could conclude that eventually someone among them would invent a process for creating electricity.

If you are desperate enough, then maybe you might be the one to discover it for female usage.

It is not off-limits to females but what is a good reason for females to use it, if they are not interested in abandoning material existence once and for all.

Read some about the Brahma deity here:

http://vedabase.net/sb/2/5/en

http://vedabase.net/sb/2/6/en

Colleen 5 years ago

A lot of females are using at least some parts of Yoga, so there are probably as many reasons as there are users. And, whatever the reasons may be, it is pretty clear that it is effective or they would not continue. We see similar things happening with Latter-day Saint teachings. Some of them are attractive to a broad audience and are easily adopted into other modalities, and that is fine with us. We are happy whenever we improve the lot of mankind. But, the real power of it exists in the totality.

Please tell me the source of the links that you have given me, and who was the original audience of the teaching. I find them interesting and there are parallels with some of the revelations in the "Pearl of Great Price" and "Doctrine and Covenants" within my tradition. When I read some of these ancient texts, I wonder what words would be tweaked to address a more modern audience. Do you take all of this to be a literal truth, or is some of it symbolic in some way?

What is the role of sacrifice in the Hindu tradition?

MiBeloved 5 years ago

The scripture is called the Srimad Bhagavatam which contains in the 10th Canto, the biography of Krishna. It is also known as the Bhagavata Purana. But that name of Bhagavata Purana is sometimes used as an alternate name for the Devi Purana which described the Goddess Durga, Shiva’s consort.

The English in the link is the translation of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami who founded the famous Hare Krishna Movement under the name of ISKCON.

They are other translations from the Sanskrit by other writers.

You can see the entire book at the same link by clicking on the name of the book at the time and then selecting the various chapters out of 12 total parts or cantos.

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The original audience of the text is a person named Suta who was told the text by a person named Shuka who was the son of the writer of the text. The writer is listed as Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasa (not Lord Krishna but Krishna’s contemporary).

Suta in turn told the story in the book to a king named Parikshit (Pur-rick-shit), who was the great grandson of Arjuna who is mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita as the warrior whom Krishna lectured the Bhagavad Gita to.

It is taken literally but that does not mean literally within the material dimension we are in. Some parts of what it described happened in the astral world.

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Explain what you mean by sacrifice and then the question can be answered.

Marcia Beloved 5 years ago

Colleen wrote:

It seems that there is no one capable of teaching women the proper techniques, so either we are a lost cause or we don't need it.

Michael wrote:

It (yoga) is not off-limits to females but what is a good reason for females to use it, if they are not interested in abandoning material existence once and for all.

Marcia Beloved's Reply:

Colleen, being a woman myself, I certainly do not see women as a "lost cause".   In my experience, a woman can benefit in a general way by trying to follow the path of male yogis.   Eventually, however, she will need to find her own way.  The techniques taught to men do not always work for women.   Some austerities performed by men are too physically severe for women and may not work just for that reason.   A woman may get a similar result from a less intense physical practice.   The psychological detachment required by a woman, however, is every bit as severe as that required by men.

A woman must also be careful in her interactions with men who are dedicated to the path of yoga because they will undoubtedly have inbred prejudices towards women and will often misunderstand and misread the yogic progression of a female.   The gender differences have been preset by nature.  A woman needs to have resourcefulness and great endurance to tread the path set by men.

What a beginner woman can do is use a yogic compass.  By this I mean that you would set certain goals for yourself.  Why are you practicing yoga (asanas and / or meditation)?   Is it for physical health?   To decrease stress?   To never take another material body?   To develop mystic skills?   To learn a meditation process and see where it leads?   Design a practice for yourself based on what you need right now.  The practice will evolve as you dedicate yourself more and more.

There is no competition involved in genuine yoga practice..  You do it and you assess the impact on your body and your mind.  There is no status involved.  Even if Michael becomes a highly respected and famous yogi, it will mean nothing if he falls short of his long term goal of attaining a yoga siddha body in a world nearer to the spiritual places.  It does not pay to compare oneself to the next person, because you will only progress according to your background and conditioning which is exclusive to you.  You may progress at a different pace and experience attainments in a different order than anyone else.   Of course, there are guideposts outlined in yogic texts, but you will invariably encounter detours along the way.

The most important asset a woman can have if she is striving for liberation from material existence, is to be dead serious about it.  A woman needs to be tired of the regular family and social dealings, including with children.  She must, at least internally, know without a doubt that all these relationships, emotional connections, and social involvements are not REAL and that they do not LAST.    You must come to a dead end of sorts when it comes to material and family fulfillments

Are you ready to become totally psychologically detached from your parents?    your husband?    your children?   your family?   your friends?   your reputation?     your desires?     your sense of identity?   Can you function in your current role and simultaneously sever attachments?

Are you ready to practice celibacy and root out subtle sexual desires?

Can you even attempt this from where you are situated in your current social situation?   Or are you planting seeds now for a more serious attempt in a future birth?   It is important to reflect on these things.  This is a little peek into the requirements of the ancient yoga path.

My advice to you is to keep on practicing as you have been and see where it leads.   The serious practitioners on this forum are springboarding from their efforts in previous lives.  It is best not to envy them, but to just watch and listen as you have the chance.  Your own path will keep unfolding so long as you are sincere.

I do not have a strong sense that I am springboarding from the past.  But I have placed a downpayment for the next life.  In this life, however, I found the price of yoga to be very high.   I am still discovering the nuances of my psychology and trying to root out aspects that are holding me back.   Total detachment does not leave any wiggle room for enjoyment.   Best to approach this path gradually than to jump right into the fire and get burned.

Erinn, would you care to comment?