Continued from above.......

Alfredo 3 years ago

Thank you!

Michael Wrote: [I do not understand the meaning of the terms God or Brahman in this usage. Please stop using these words in this vague way. Instead of these words say what you actually mean by these words and then I can answer the question.]

Alfredo’s Reply:

What I mean is the creator, the creator of the whole thing, as meant by the God of the Bible, or the Adonai of the Torah, or the Brahman of the Upanishads.

What is Krishna's relationship to this creator?

Apparently some Krishna devotees appear to imply He is the creator himself.

But how can that be if Krishna is the Supreme Person, as this creator must be impersonal.

MiBeloved 3 years ago

Why does the creator have to be impersonal?

Please provide some basis for this conclusion.

Alfredo 3 years ago

My proposal at first (I am not sure) is that the creation encompasses everything, including every person or individual, thus should be impersonal. However, this looks like the Nirvana of Buddhism, and does not appeal to me.

It is said that the Brahman of the Upanishad is a personal Brahman and not the impersonal Nirvana.

It seems you believe the creator is not impersonal...please expand upon this and the relationship with Lord Krishna.

MiBeloved 3 years ago

You have to be clear to yourself about what is impersonal and what is not, before we can engage a conversation which has some value instead of a useless set of opinions of either of us. Until you get that clarity it is "no go".

Don't get bogged down by what you think might be my belief. Let us not get off into cloud nine. Right here on earth right now we have to deal with both the impersonal and the personal and we find that usually the personal is causing us much more stress than the impersonal.

In some applications we cannot be sure that what we term as impersonal is not personal.

For instance recently there was that tidal wave at Fukushima, Japan. Can anyone prove to me that that was impersonal. Who can prove that some individual did not cause that tidal wave?

We can say that we did not see a person do this, but we cannot provide complete proof about that because we do not know if there are persons in a subtle existence who might have the power to cause such widespread disaster.

I grew up in South American, where as boys, we use to demolish ant nests. One ant nest might have one million individual creatures and we might take hot water and pour it into the nest. So what should the ants think that this is being done by an impersonal force or by a person? And mind you they cannot see well enough to see us doing this. They can only perceive the action of the flood of hot water.

So if you want to speak about the impersonal we will first have to settle up on this. Otherwise the conversation is over.

Alfredo 3 years ago

OK, very well, thank you.

On another topic, in the Uddhava Gita Explained, I believe, you spoke of your realization of Krishna as the 4-handed vision. Is that correct? I know Arjuna's realization was the many-handed, as described in the Baghavad Gita.

In what plane was that realization effected?

MiBeloved 3 years ago

Please carefully check the Gita. Arjuna had two distinct revelations, the first being that of the many-handed, sahasrabahu, and then there was the special perception of the four handed chaturbhuja. Please go over the text carefully.

To Arjuna the universal form was not the God form, deva rupa because at that time, the God form had to be having four arms, no more, no less.

Here are the verses.

Thus see if you can comb through the Gita and find the answer to your question in Arjuna's declarations which are more authoritativeness than my own. And please post what you discover.

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अदृष्टपूर्वं हृषितोऽस्मि दृष्ट्वा

भयेन च प्रव्यथितं मनो मे ।

तदेव मे दर्शय देव रूपं

प्रसीद देवेश जगन्निवास ॥११.४५॥

adṛṣṭapūrvaṁ hṛṣito'smi dṛṣṭvā

bhayena ca pravyathitaṁ mano me

tadeva me darśaya deva rūpaṁ

prasīda deveśa jagannivāsa (11.45)

adṛṣṭapūrvaṁ = adṛṣṭa—never seen + pūrvaṁ — previously; hṛṣiṭo = hṛṣitaḥ — delighted; 'smi = asmi — I am; dṛṣṭvā — having seen; bhayena — with fear; ca — and, but; pravyathitaṁ — trembling; mano = manaḥ— mind; me — my; tat — that; eva — indeed: me — to me; darśaya — to see; deva — O God; rūpaṁ — God-form; prasīda — have mercy; deveśa — Lord of gods; jagannivāsa — shelter of the world

Seeing what was never seen before, I am delighted but my mind trembles with fear. Now, O God, cause me to see the God-form. Have mercy, O Lord of the gods, shelter of the world. (11.45)

किरीटिनं गदिनं चक्रहस्तम्

इच्छामि त्वां द्रष्टुमहं तथैव ।

तेनैव रूपेण चतुर्भुजेन

सहस्रबाहो भव विश्वमूर्ते ॥११.४६॥

kirīṭinaṁ gadinaṁ cakrahastam

icchāmi tvāṁ draṣṭumah tathaiva

tenaiva rūpeṇa caturbhujena

sahasrabāho bhava viśvamūrte (11.46)

kirīṭinaṁ — form which wears a crown, gadinaṁ — form which is armed with a disc; cakrahastaṁ — for with a club in hand; icchāmi — I wish; tvāṁ — you; draṣṭum — to see; aham — I; tathaiva - tathii — as requested + eva — indeed; tenaiva — tena -with this + eva — indeed; rūpeṇa — with the form; caturbhujena — with four arms; sahasrabāho — O thousand-armed person; bhava — become; viśvamūrte — person of universal dimensions

I wish to see You wearing a crown, armed with a club, and with a disc in hand, as requested. Please become that four-armed form, O thousand-armed Person, O Person of universal dimensions. (11.46)