Continued from above.......

 

Can I just get this realization without performing these authorities, because if I cannot then I will have to do the same (useless) austerities to gain that understanding?

 

The reason why most of us will have to do those austerities is because we are conditioned to use the body for getting the pleasure which is not based on sensuality. That is our training for millions of years, so it will not be possible for us to just jump up to not doing austerities. Most of us will have to do the austerities to come to that understanding.

 

You are thinking after reading this that you can do this get this understanding integrated into your nature without the gruesome austerities but I am saying that you are kidding yourself. The mere idea that you did not see the value of the austerities which Buddha later rejected, means that you are not mature in this and therefore you cannot get to the understanding by any other means but austerities.

 

This reminds me of all these people who took loans for big opulent houses, but they did not have the income basis to keep paying for the loans and so they faced foreclosure. Or there is the case of those people who go to Wal-Mart and buy a Persian rug. Wal-Mart only sells fake rugs. But still these people go away with a feeling that they have a Persian rug.

 

Buddha bought his rug from the expensive store of austerities. Do you think that he can mass produce such rugs and hand them out to one and all as the Middle Way? I doubt it.

 

Do you think that the engineer at the aircraft factory who designed the passenger jet can give his understanding and skill to a passenger who rides on the plane, so that the passenger can manufacture and then fly that plane?

 

That is not going to happen unless the passenger first takes some schooling in making aircraft. The passenger can fly in the plane but they won’t have the skill of the engineer merely by sitting in the aircraft while it flies.

 

From archeology we know that there is potential from ape to human but that would take millions of years.

 

Why so long?

 

It is just a matter of including one or two other genes. So why can’t we get rid of those millions of years and just turn every ape in the jungles of Africa into humans without going through all of that time?

 

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"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?'

 

MiBeloved’s Response:

 

This experience was when he was secluded from sensuality and secluded from unskillful mental qualities.

 

What is that?

 

Can you explain that?

 

Are you also entering such states?

 

Rapture and pleasure born from seclusion, from being alone, existentially, physically, mentally and emotionally. Are you experiencing this?

 

While experiencing this do you have directed thought and evaluation?

 

However the big question here is that even if you are experiencing that why is it that you are not enlightened? Why is it that Buddha could not make use of that before he went through the austerities? Can another person do this without that process, based on Buddha did?

 

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Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge.

 

MiBeloved’s Response:

 

Following the Middle Way?

 

How?

 

With this realization about the rapture and pleasure born from seclusion? Can you use that and cast aside other pleasures which have other psychological sources?

 

How can you sort it all as Buddha did?

 

He could not sort it until he did the austerities but you are suggesting that you will be able to do without going through the austerities. How would that be done?

 

We have black. We have white. We have grey. And you feel that even though you only know a little about grey, you can take grey, break it down, and partition the black from the white.

 

Really?

 

The reason why the pleasure which is not derived from sensuality can hardly be acquired from an emaciated body is that in an emaciated body the self, of necessity, is attracted to the condition of the body, and therefore it is near impossible to focus on anything but the body in that state.

 

This reveals something important which is that as great as Buddha was he was unable to become completely detached from the material body, so much so that when it was emaciated its demands for food was bugging him so much that he would not focus on the rapture which has nothing to do with sensuality.

 

Sit down and think about this. It might bring you to your senses.

 

Buddha tried to do it once he realized what was what. He felt that it could not be maintained as a steady focus in that state, but they were yogis from ancient times who were able to do that, because they were able to shift their attention away from the emaciated body.

 

One strange case of this was the criminal yogi named Hiranyakashipu who even surprised Brahma, the same deity who met with Buddha. Brahma told Hiranyakashipu that no one in the past and no one in the future will attain the stage of detached body privation which the criminal yogi had achieved. This is in the 7th Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Buddha could not do it but a person did it who was thousands of years before him according to the Bhagavata Purana.

 

Are you aware of this?

 

The other think here is motive, because Hiranyakashipu’s motive was to get sufficient supernatural power to control the universe.

 

If he wants to keep on living as a material body, then at this stage of the practice, a yogi would have to begin to nourish the body again, but if he did not feel the need to continue on the physical side, the yogi could kill the body by the continued austerities and then slip away to the place where there is no material body to deal with in the first place and where there is no pleasure from the sensuality which causes anguish which is what motivated Buddha to begin the austerities in the first place.

 

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Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.'

 

MiBeloved’s Response:

 

This means that those five monks realized that Buddha went further in the austerities. They respected that and felt that he might share some insight into how to do the austerities in a more efficient manner.

 

The austerities are valuable and are mandatory in most cases, but the problem is the motive one has for doing the austerities. If it is to be able to focus on rapture that comes from seclusion, then austerities if they distract one from that and causes one to focus on something else, cannot give the result.

 

But again that is the particular kind of realization which Buddha achieved. There are various kinds of realizations to be achieved, that is only one of them, the one he mastered.

 

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"So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.

 

MiBeloved’s Response:

 

Notice the word secluded. How is that attained without austerity? Can the average person enter into rapture and pleasure which comes when they are secluded from sensuality and unskillful mental qualities?

 

For the average person this is not possible without the austerities:

 

Please read about Acharya Mun. Here is a link:

 

File

 

Then Click on this:

 

MahaYogin Acharya Mun: Biography

 

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But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained equanimous, mindful, & alert, and sensed pleasure with the body. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain.

 

MiBeloved’s Response:

 

These are samadhi states. Tell us how you will attain this after side-stepping the austerities for the physical body. And also please explain to us why Buddha did not get into these states while he was living as a prince in Nepal?

 

What was lacking then so that he did not develop these samadhi meditative states?

 

Does the average person have those lacking features? Please explain?

 

Special Note:

 

The information above about what happened to Buddha was inspired by this deity of Buddha which is in a temple in South Korea:

 

 

 

Paul 3 years ago

If we consider this Black and White and Gray Analogy a bit more and be honest about it, we have to admit that' really know very very little..and this experience of Gray is significant here, because we come into this life and leave in the Gray..Gray is a mixture of black and white. It's an impure condition. Everything is relative and everything is this combination of different degrees of black and white...We could call Black Ignorance depending on where we are standing when we made this observation.

 

The Black and White analogy came outside of this field. The fish can't know or understand it's in water. Water is the fish's consciousness just like the limited paradigm's we assemble in order to make some kind of sense out of this relative world. But from inside it we cannot see that it Gray..it doesn't really register as Gray. I feel, this is important, because it's a map that can be used when we endeavor to cross the glitter and gloom of life and not call this gray, something it's not..

 

MiBeloved 3 years ago

Read about Hiranyakashipu who also starved his body doing yoga and then compare his achievement with Buddha.

 

It is important to know that Buddha was not the first yogi to do this and others came to completely different realisations because they were motivated by different events in their lives.

 

This below was copied from Vedabase site.

 

http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/Brahma_(SB_cantos_7_and_8)

 

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SB 7.3.1: Nārada Muni said to Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira: The demoniac king Hiraṇyakaśipu wanted to be unconquerable and free from old age and dwindling of the body. He wanted to gain all the yogic perfections like aṇimā and laghimā, to be deathless, and to be the only king of the entire universe, including Brahmaloka.

 

SB 7.3.2: In the valley of Mandara Hill, Hiraṇyakaśipu began performing his austerities by standing with his toes on the ground, keeping his arms upward and looking toward the sky. This position was extremely difficult, but he accepted it as a means to attain perfection.

 

SB 7.3.3: From the hair on Hiraṇyakaśipu's head there emanated an effulgent light as brilliant and intolerable as the rays of the sun at the time of dissolution. Seeing the performance of such austere penances, the demigods, who had been wandering throughout the planets, now returned to their respective homes.

 

SB 7.3.4: Because of Hiraṇyakaśipu's severe austerities, fire came from his head, and this fire and its smoke spread throughout the sky, encompassing the upper and lower planets, which all became extremely hot.

 

SB 7.3.5: Because of the power of his severe austerities, all the rivers and oceans were agitated, the surface of the globe, with its mountains and islands, began trembling, and the stars and planets fell. All directions were ablaze.

 

SB 7.3.6: Scorched and extremely disturbed because of Hiraṇyakaśipu's severe penances, all the demigods left the planets where they reside and went to the planet of Lord Brahmā, where they informed the creator as follows: O lord of the demigods, O master of the universe, because of the fire emanating from Hiraṇyakaśipu's head as a result of his severe austerities, we have become so disturbed that we could not stay in our planets but have come to you.

 

SB 7.3.7: O great person, chief of the universe, if you think it proper, kindly stop these disturbances, meant to destroy everything, before all your obedient subjects are annihilated.

 

SB 7.3.8: Hiraṇyakaśipu has undertaken a most severe type of austerity. Although his plan is not unknown to you, kindly listen as we submit his intentions.

 

SB 7.3.9-10: "The supreme person within this universe, Lord Brahmā, has gotten his exalted post by dint of severe austerities, mystic power and trance. Consequently, after creating the universe, he has become the most worshipable demigod within it. Since I am eternal and time is eternal, I shall endeavor for such austerity, mystic power and trance for many, many births, and thus I shall occupy the same post occupied by Lord Brahmā.

 

SB 7.3.11: "By dint of my severe austerities, I shall reverse the results of pious and impious activities. I shall overturn all the established practices within this world. Even Dhruvaloka will be vanquished at the end of the millennium. Therefore, what is the use of it? I shall prefer to remain in the position of Brahmā."

 

SB 7.3.12: O lord, we have heard from reliable sources that in order to obtain your post, Hiraṇyakaśipu is now engaged in severe austerity. You are the master of the three worlds. Please, without delay, take whatever steps you deem appropriate.

 

SB 7.3.13: O Lord Brahmā, your position within this universe is certainly most auspicious for everyone, especially the cows and brāhmaṇas. Brahminical culture and the protection of cows can be increasingly glorified, and thus all kinds of material happiness, opulence and good fortune will automatically increase. But unfortunately, if Hiraṇyakaśipu occupies your seat, everything will be lost.