Veena GROVER,RYTYes Michael Beloved,your special gift of Kundalini yoga is helping me a lot to understand the value of meditation.Surrender to His Will. Thanks
Anil SharmaDear Michael, that’s a very deep question you put forth...how can this Atma come about in the first place.?
Anil SharmaI share my understanding on this question as I’ve understood from my Guru. Atma is always a potentiality in every being. Atma is like that seed that has the potential to grow into a full fledge tree once it gets the required roots and nourishment. Every seed needs nourishment. Similarly Atma can be nurtured with the practice of Ashtanga Yoga. In these practices one learns to develop the practice of “will force” or Icchha Shakti and this leads to the understanding that there is something other than the body...I.e. the observer that has the potential to command the body. This potential is the Atma...which when cultivated then needs to be sublimes with the Paramatma.
I see that you used the term Paramatma in the traditional way of which it is used in India. I appreciate this. However in the West which is based more or less on Christianity, the concept of Paramatma is not as developed.
Some New Agers have tried to squeeze Paramatma out of the Bible but actually there is not much support for it there, except in the concept of the Holy Ghost and the Still Small Voice of God.
When someone from the Vedic process uses that term for English readers, it should be qualified with some explanation as to what Paramatma is. If you could clear that up a bit, it would help many who may read your responses.
Regarding atma, I beg your indulgence to explain what you mean by potential because if the atma is always a potentiality in every being, then that spins us into a new inquiry as to source of that potential. Potential means existing in possibility: capable of development into actuality (Merriam Webster).
That puts the atma into hot water because it would mean that it does not exist as yet but it may become manifest if particular conditions happen. You explained it in the seed-turn-into-tree example. However that would also mean that perhaps some seeds will never turn into trees because of being fried or being chopped or being put in the sea water.
Something which is a potential involves luck and chance (mysterious fate) where it might or might not happen. Is that what you mean? If the atma is definite in each case of each being, then the term potential may be inappropriate. Some other English word would have to be used.
Michael BelovedThe question also arises, as to how this atma remain unmanifest for the time of the being. Where is it hidden? What are the conditions which cause it to sprout?
Anil SharmaDear Michael....your questions are most interesting! Let me work with the language as I attempt to share my take on the Atma. Yes, Atma is manifesting every being. It it the “ I am that” or Tatvamasi in all beings. The Atma takes on the bodily sheath to experience the ‘bhogas’ both the good and not so good according to ones accumulated karma’s. The seed like Atma allows the entire life to be carried out without the need for it to be developed into a Tree. Gurukul times, the teacher blessed the student saying ‘Be Atmavaan’ or develop your Atma from the seed stage into a full grown tree. This meant for the students to develop their understanding from going beyond the vaasna or wants of the body and realise that we are more than the wants of this body. Here’s an example to elaborate more on the sublimation of the Atma and why is this useful in the end.
Anil SharmaSiddhartha Gautam practiced intense Tapa and gained some siddhis...but the final enlightenment and Anand evaded him. One fine day he learnt his lesson from a village girl who sold milk. He then made the supreme sacrifice,,,,he went on to sacrifice his own concept of making grand sacrifices! He merged with the flow and at that moment he attained “Bodha” and became Buddha!
Anil SharmaIt is difficult to handover ones own grand accomplishments....these accomplishments give into the development of Ego or Ahankaar. This is the last standing wall between the Sadhak and his dissolution into the Divinity. Giving into divinity or Paramatma can only be done by a strong willed person who can go into total unconditional surrender. Only the one who has developed his Atma and then surrender the same into Divinity and come to a stage of “Ananya Bhaav”...I.e. the point where two cannot exist...or there is no other.
Gordon PatersonYour critique of Christianity is well founded: it is sad that the early Christian Fathers could not understand the esoteric Teachings of Jesus. As a consequence Christianity was never fully developed, and we are left with a philosophy which is essentially "ethical" in its main message. Pity.
The codification of various Christian doctrines, the acceptance of some rejection of others, occurred during the Council of Nicea ca AD 350. It was at this point that the Catholic Church was born and became an essentially political entity at this Council---thence forward.
No wonder then that higher Eastern philosophical ideals are hard for Westerners to grasp, for most of them are still considered anathema, by the church, if not blasphemous. Not much there! Creator and Created will always be separated, except in moments of rare communion, and then that unity undermined by never "really happening."
Many holy and worthy saints lost their lives on a fiery stake holding such opinions. Again, Pity!
Great reading your thoughts again, Michael. Pranams, Nirguna
Veena GROVER,RYT Yes Michael Beloved,your special gift of Kundalini yoga is helping me a lot to understand the value of meditation.Surrender to His Will. Thanks
Anil Sharma Dear Michael, that’s a very deep question you put forth...how can this Atma come about in the first place.?
Anil Sharma I share my understanding on this question as I’ve understood from my Guru. Atma is always a potentiality in every being. Atma is like that seed that has the potential to grow into a full fledge tree once it gets the required roots and nourishment. Every seed needs nourishment. Similarly Atma can be nurtured with the practice of Ashtanga Yoga. In these practices one learns to develop the practice of “will force” or Icchha Shakti and this leads to the understanding that there is something other than the body...I.e. the observer that has the potential to command the body. This potential is the Atma...which when cultivated then needs to be sublimes with the Paramatma.
Michael Beloved Anil Sharma,
I see that you used the term Paramatma in the traditional way of which it is used in India. I appreciate this. However in the West which is based more or less on Christianity, the concept of Paramatma is not as developed.
Some New Agers have tried to squeeze Paramatma out of the Bible but actually there is not much support for it there, except in the concept of the Holy Ghost and the Still Small Voice of God.
When someone from the Vedic process uses that term for English readers, it should be qualified with some explanation as to what Paramatma is. If you could clear that up a bit, it would help many who may read your responses.
Michael Beloved Anil Sharma,
Regarding atma, I beg your indulgence to explain what you mean by potential because if the atma is always a potentiality in every being, then that spins us into a new inquiry as to source of that potential. Potential means existing in possibility: capable of development into actuality (Merriam Webster).
That puts the atma into hot water because it would mean that it does not exist as yet but it may become manifest if particular conditions happen. You explained it in the seed-turn-into-tree example. However that would also mean that perhaps some seeds will never turn into trees because of being fried or being chopped or being put in the sea water.
Something which is a potential involves luck and chance (mysterious fate) where it might or might not happen. Is that what you mean? If the atma is definite in each case of each being, then the term potential may be inappropriate. Some other English word would have to be used.
Michael Beloved The question also arises, as to how this atma remain unmanifest for the time of the being. Where is it hidden? What are the conditions which cause it to sprout?
Anil Sharma Dear Michael....your questions are most interesting! Let me work with the language as I attempt to share my take on the Atma. Yes, Atma is manifesting every being. It it the “ I am that” or Tatvamasi in all beings. The Atma takes on the bodily sheath to experience the ‘bhogas’ both the good and not so good according to ones accumulated karma’s. The seed like Atma allows the entire life to be carried out without the need for it to be developed into a Tree.
Gurukul times, the teacher blessed the student saying ‘Be Atmavaan’ or develop your Atma from the seed stage into a full grown tree. This meant for the students to develop their understanding from going beyond the vaasna or wants of the body and realise that we are more than the wants of this body.
Here’s an example to elaborate more on the sublimation of the Atma and why is this useful in the end.
Anil Sharma Siddhartha Gautam practiced intense Tapa and gained some siddhis...but the final enlightenment and Anand evaded him. One fine day he learnt his lesson from a village girl who sold milk. He then made the supreme sacrifice,,,,he went on to sacrifice his own concept of making grand sacrifices! He merged with the flow and at that moment he attained “Bodha” and became Buddha!
Anil Sharma It is difficult to handover ones own grand accomplishments....these accomplishments give into the development of Ego or Ahankaar. This is the last standing wall between the Sadhak and his dissolution into the Divinity. Giving into divinity or Paramatma can only be done by a strong willed person who can go into total unconditional surrender. Only the one who has developed his Atma and then surrender the same into Divinity and come to a stage of “Ananya Bhaav”...I.e. the point where two cannot exist...or there is no other.
Gordon Paterson Your critique of Christianity is well founded: it is sad that the early Christian Fathers could not understand the esoteric Teachings of Jesus. As a consequence Christianity was never fully developed, and we are left with a philosophy which is essentially "ethical" in its main message. Pity.
The codification of various Christian doctrines, the acceptance of some rejection of others, occurred during the Council of Nicea ca AD 350. It was at this point that the Catholic Church was born and became an essentially political entity at this Council---thence forward.
No wonder then that higher Eastern philosophical ideals are hard for Westerners to grasp, for most of them are still considered anathema, by the church, if not blasphemous. Not much there! Creator and Created will always be separated, except in moments of rare communion, and then that unity undermined by never "really happening."
Many holy and worthy saints lost their lives on a fiery stake holding such opinions. Again, Pity!
Great reading your thoughts again, Michael. Pranams, Nirguna