Universal Form / Second Request
Meditationtime Forum Post
Date: Posted 3 years before Jun 04, 2016
MiBeloved 3 years ago
Email Inquiry about the Anu Gita:
A couple of questions: (1) I cannot find the exact verse where Arjuna specifically asks Krishna to see His Universal Form yet again. He asks Him to repeat the revelation. I see that. But does he specifically ask to see the virat-rupa? (2) In verse 11, Krishna says that His "recollection of the [previous] speech is an impossibility." I understand that it was initially a spontaneous sermon and therefore cannot be created verbatim -- at least that would be so for an ordinary soul. But this is Krishna! Why can He not do the impossible? Surely, He could reiterate the Bhagavad-gita if He wanted to. How would you explain this?
MiBeloved's Response:
Please take note of two Sanskrit words in verse 5 of chapter 1 of Anu Gita. These words are māhātmyaṁ and aiśvaram.
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विदितं ते महाबाहो संग्रामे समुपस्थिते
माहात्म्यं देवकीमातस्तच्च ते रूपमैश्वरम्
viditaṁ te mahābāho saṁgrāme samupasthite
māhātmyaṁ devakīmātastacca te rūpamaiśvaram (1.5)
viditaṁ - knew, perceived; te - your; mahābāho - O superman; - saṁgrāme – in the battle; samupasthite – in commencing, before; māhātmyaṁ - infinite control; devakīmātas = devakīmātah – one whose mother is Devakī; tac = tat = that; ca – and; te – your; rūpam – form; aiśvaram – supernatural majestic form
O superman, person who is the son of Devakī, just before the battle, I perceived your infinite control and your supernatural majestic form.
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In the initial request to see the Universal Form, Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita used the same language. Please see verses 2 and 3 of Chapter 11 of Bhagavad Gita where the original request was made:
भवाप्ययौ हि भूतानां
श्रुतौ विस्तरशो मया ।
त्वत्तः कमलपत्राक्ष
माहात्म्यमपि चाव्ययम् ॥११.२॥
bhavāpyayau hi bhūtānāṁ
śrutau vistaraśo mayā
tvattaḥ kamalapatrākṣa
māhātmyamapi cāvyayam (11.2)
bhavāpyayau = bhava — origin + apy (api) — also + ayau — ruination; hi — indeed; bhūtānām — of the beings; śrutau — both were heard; vistaraśo = vistaraśaḥ — in detail; mayā — by me; tvattaḥ — from you; kamalapatrākṣa = kamala — lotus + patra — petal + akṣa — eyed; māhātmyam — majestic glory; api — also; cāvyayam = ca — and + avyayam — eternally
The description of the origin and ruination of the beings was heard in detail by me, O Person Whose eyes are shaped like lotus petals. You also described Your eternal majestic glory. (11.2)
एवमेतद्यथात्थ त्वम्
आत्मानं परमेश्वर ।
द्रष्टुमिच्छामि ते रूपम्
ऎश्वरं पुरुषोत्तम ॥११.३॥
evametadyathāttha tvam
ātmānaṁ parameśvara
draṣṭumicchāmi te rūpam
aiśvaraṁ puruṣottama (11.3)
evam — thus; etad — this; yathāttha = yathā — as + attha — you explain; tvam — you; ātmānam — yourself; parameśvara — O Supreme Lord; draṣṭum — to see; icchāmi — I wish; te — your; rūpam — form; aiśvaram — majesty; puruṣottama — O Supreme Person
This is as You explained about Yourself, O Supreme Lord. I wish to see Your Majestic Form, O Supreme Person. (11.3)
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Regarding your question about why Krishna did not again repeat the Bhagavad Gita. In the first place, Krishna could have repeated it word for word, verbatim because we know for sure that sometimes even human beings repeat incidences word for word and especially in the time of the Battle of Kurukshetra, all the languages used in India and elsewhere were designed for oral transmission and not for literary use as we do today.
Today our languages are designed to be kept in a written form while then the languages were for keeping in the memory of the mind. That means that it could be repeated verbatim. Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasa who declared Krishna as the Supreme Person was repeating much verbatim and he empowered Sanjaya to repeat Gita verbatim. Therefore this must be a way of speaking where Krishna said that he could not recall the speech.
It is a conversational attitude and not an actual fact. It was Krishna’s way of saying that he just would not make any effort to again hash over what he explained on the occasion.
We may also note that others were present there when Arjuna made this request. It may be that Krishna would only reveal this form to particular persons at particular places, not whimsically. The phase of the form which Arjuna saw was not relevant to the peace-time situation Arjuna and his relatives were in when Arjuna made the second request of the form.
The Universal Form in particular which Arjuna saw was really a phase of Krishna’s universal form, and only the phase of it as it applied to the Battle of Kurukshetra. Before the battle Duryodhana was shown another phase of the form when Krishna went as an ambassador to sue for peace. That also was the Universal Form but it was a particular phase of it. It is not a static form. It is alive and historic, changing continuously according to the flow of history.
Generally we think that what Arjuna saw was the Universal Form but this is technically an oversimplification. He saw only a phase of the form and only a phase which was relevant to the battle of Kurushetra and to Krishna’s disciplinary dealings with the Kurus and their allies.
Since the Form is dynamic, meaning historic, what Arjuna was as the actions of the Form were no longer being carried out by the form. Thus it was not directly relevant to the situation of Arjuna and his brothers after the war.
Krishna would have had to replay the previous activities of the form for Arjuna and also would have had to reveal it to others who had no business seeing that ghastly disciplinary behavior of the form.
unlimitedsun 3 years ago
Michael Wrote:
Krishna would have had to replay the previous activities of the form for Arjuna and also would have had to reveal it to others who had no business seeing that ghastly disciplinary behavior of the form.
unlimitedsun’s query:
Then was everybody else at Kuruksetra on an advanced level comparable to that of Arjuna? Krishna could reveal himself to Arjuna in the presence of others and they would not see the same?
MiBeloved 3 years ago
The warriors were of different grade; some lower and some higher; according to their individual spiritual development. Universal Form was seen by all who were allowed to see it; based on two factors which were.
Individual interest in Krishna.
Level of spiritual power and cooperation with or opposition towards Krishna.
The form shown at Kurukshetra is described in detail as to what was scene and it was mostly ghastly with Krishna supernaturally disciplining warriors who were opposed to the rule of law which Krishna was enforcing. It was a disciplinary display.
When the Anu Gita was spoken, that condition of the battle and that circumstance of the corruption of the Kuru political family was not present. That display or attitude of the Universal form was not relevant.
Winston Churchill was the main opponent of Adolf Hitler, except for Joseph Stalin. The mood of Churchill during the London bombing raids of German aircraft could hardly be displayed by Churchill after the war when Berlin was leveled to concrete dust.
Try to understand that what Arjuna saw was not a static universal form but a mood attitude of the form which it had in response to the Kuru situation at the time just before the battle. That mood was no longer present, so its replay was no longer relevant. There was no Krishna supernaturally opposing Kurus at the time of the request of the Anu Gita.
If you still do not understand this, then ask a question again.
Ghastly form of Krishna is not a whimsical thing. A devotee is not a master of Krishna where the devotee can ask for visions which were shown before and which were live current displays in particular situations. The Universal Form is not a statue which remains in a particular posture through time. Universal form is historic just like anything which alters in response to time. It is a live form not a stationary mock-up.
Arjuna was no longer required to discipline those family members and the Universal Form had no value for Arjuna in that way anymore. Krishna could not replay that mood which He had at the time. Many of the offensive warriors were already departed and were gone to different astral worlds and were not physically present, so Krishna could not respond to them due to their absence.
The request of Arjuna before the battle was serious, but Arjuna’s request in the Anu Gita was whimsical. A student should not ask an authority for whimsical displays of supernatural power. God is not a toy shop. The form is not only shown to devotees. It was shown before the battle to Duryodhana who was an outright opponent of Krishna. Therefore that should be considered. Duryodhana did not ask Krishna to see the form. So why did Krishna reveal to such a person who was not a devotee?
It is important to understand Krishna so that one knows what types of requests He will honor.
unlimitedsun 3 years ago
Thank you! Very interesting and most esoteric, even divinely intimate.
