Shatkarmas, Mantras, Mudras

Meditationtime Forum Post

Date: Posted 3 years before Sep 27, 2016

Neo_Yogi 3 years ago

Dear Swami,

If you have time, I'd like to make you a couple of questions:

Are shatkarmas like jala/sutra neti, danda dhauti, etc really necessary for spiritual advancement?

Video Title: Advanced Yoga Shat Kriya Demonstration - Jala Neti, Sutra Neti, Vamana Dhauti, Danda Dhauti by yogainstitute

Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XibkcqQeJM

Also I'd like to know your thoughts about the usefulness of mantra recitations and mudras in one's spiritual path.

MiBeloved 3 years ago

Neo_Yogi's Query:

Are shatkarmas like jala/sutra neti, danda dhauti, etc really necessary for spiritual advancement?

MiBeloved's Response:

It is a question as to if these are necessary for an individual. It depends on the individual. It is not necessary for everyone. It is necessary for those who cannot advance to a certain stage without doing these practices.

For yourself, if you are attracted to this, then you should try it out and assess if it assist you in your objective. If it does, then continue it. If it does not, then cease it and find other methods.

==================

Neo_Yogi's Query:

Also I'd like to know your thoughts about the usefulness of mantra recitations and mudras in one's spiritual path.

MiBeloved's Response:

Mantras and mudras are useful but again it depends on the individual. Meditation practice, spiritual path attainment is really an individual accomplishment, which takes place in the individual psyche. In the end whatever method is used, it has to be tailored to suit the individual.

General paths are good for a beginning but the student needs to get a tailored process which is especially adapted to his or her psyche. This is because each person has specific unique hang-ups.

Neo_Yogi 3 years ago

MiBeloved wrote:

(...) For yourself, if you are attracted to this, then you should try it out and assess if it assist you in your objective. If it does, then continue it. If it does not, then cease it and find other methods.

Neo_Yogi's Reply:

Actually I'm not attracted to these practices whatsoever; I'll leave them aside for the moment...

==================

MiBeloved wrote:

(...) Mantras and mudras are useful but again it depends on the individual. Meditation practice, spiritual path attainment is really an individual accomplishment, which takes place in the individual psyche. In the end whatever method is used, it has to be tailored to suit the individual.

Neo_Yogi's Reply:

I've never understood how certain sounds without a meaning for us western individuals (mantras) could help us in our spiritual path but, as Yogi Bhajan's teachings are very revered here in this forum, I searched for some of his teachings and I found a Kundalini Manual where one is required to recite many mantras along with the use of mudras. As I value and respect your teachings, Swami Michael, I just wanted to know your opinion about whether they were essential or just some adornments to give this exercise an exotic flavor.

MiBeloved 3 years ago

Mantras have value in two ways:

· Teacher has confidence in it based on his background, his use of it and the results he got from it.

· Student has confidence in teacher’s opinion and/or in mantras because of some attraction to Sanskrit or some other language sounds.

Mantras also may pertain to deities who are supernatural entities, who are called or petitioned when using a mantra which pertains to that person specifically.

==================

Western individuals may have had many Eastern births, such that they feel attracted to Eastern sounds on the basis of those previous births which produce in this birth a predisposition of wanting to rely on Sanskrit sounds.

Sounds do cause vibrational changes in the mind and body. This can happen. There were cases of persons who reached higher planes just by chanting particular sounds but we also hear of others who used the same sounds and did not get promising results.

==================

What do I do?

I use mantras when I address particular deities. This is like when you go to someone’s house and you call the person’s name at the door.

For vibrational use, I do not use mantras but that is perhaps because I have other means of reaching higher planes, methods which I found to be more effective and reliant than mantras.

I did live in Yogi Bhajan’s ashram in Denver around 1973. I also went to a few of his intensive sessions in Los Angeles and also in Taos New Mexico during the 1970s. In that association we chanted mantras on the basis of his instructions. Many of these were hybrid Sanskrit or plain Punjabi sounds.

Did it work?

It sure did!

But I found later that not using mantras gave me more steady results and that mantras are a prop which I could do without because of my ability to focus on subtle planes easily.

Instead of mantras, I use naad which is the unstuck non-human produced Om sound. It works for me.

==================

I lived in the Hare Krishna ashram as well. Now that is the place where mantra is given paramount position over every other type of spiritual discipline. I followed the method of their sect as a person who lived in the ashram.

My opinion of it:

It depends on what you are looking for in spiritual life.

Once you define what you are looking for, then you should go and get whatever it will take to accomplish that. If mantra will do it, then so be it. Otherwise if you find something more suitable, then that is it.

unlimitedsun 3 years ago

So more than the usual definition as a mind control tool,

mantra is also an individualized prescription or a personal higher address ..?

Neo_Yogi 3 years ago

MiBeloved wrote:

It depends on what you are looking for in spiritual life.

Neo_Yogi's Reply:

I understand it's a rhetorical question but, isn't 'ultimate liberation' the goal of every spiritual path?

Well, having in mind my current personal conditions, I don't know how far I could go if I exert myself to the fullest but, at least, I'd like to get to that state where another material rebirth is unnecessary; that realm -if it exists- where it is easier to get in touch with spiritual masters and spiritual practice is not so burdened or hindered...

MiBeloved 3 years ago

Neo_Yogi's Query:

Isn’t 'ultimate liberation' the goal of every spiritual path?

MiBeloved's Response:

No, ultimate liberation is not the goal of every spiritual path, because each seeker is coming with a different motivation and a different definition requirement of what liberation is or should be.

We usually lump all the paths and all the religions together for our personal security and for boosting our self-esteem but on a close inspection we find that there is a divergence in aims for people on a spiritual path.

There was a statement made by as great a person as Paramhamsa Ramakrishna about all paths leading to the same place. But that is silly. It makes absolutely no sense. We have varied interests. Some of us are interested in salvation in terms of an eternal material body. Others want to extinguish their individuality which they have found to be very painful and trauma-prone. Some others want to be with a conceived God in a heavenly paradise. Some others want to merge into their idea of the whole existence. And there are other objectives.

Ultimate liberation?

First we have to agree on what that is and then we can hold a conversation about if all people agree that this is the objective.

==================

Neo_Yogi wrote:

MiBeloved's Response:

This is a lofty aim but it is a loser’s way of looking at the problem of transmigration of the subtle body because it does not take into account the helplessness of the individual who is locked down in that subtle form.

Child in a crib can cry for hours, and still that will not cause it to have feet which empower it to leave the crib. Wanting freedom from rebirth does not in the least budge the way of psychic nature which is to perpetuate rebirth.

The harnessed horse?

Can it figure how to remove the bit in its mouth?

And even if it does, does it have the limbs which could remove the contraption?

Poor horse!!!

Neo_Yogi 3 years ago

MiBeloved wrote:

Ultimate liberation?

First we have to agree on what that is and then we can hold a conversation about if all people agree that this is the objective.

Neo_Yogi's Reply:

I agree, but it's not our fault that we (ignorant souls) confuse these terms; Christ came from a superior realm to talk about the ultimate supreme state: staying in heaven with God, the only one, the Creator. Buddha also came down from a higher realm and, apart from saying there was not a creator god, talked also about the ultimate supreme state: extinction.

Sri Ramakrishna was considered to be the incarnation of a certain deity and he stated that all spiritual paths led to the same place and you say that this idea is just crazy.

If yogi masters and higher beings don't agree with each other, how can we know what the ultimate liberation is? This sounds like politicians who want to fool us into believing they are the best option for us just to get the highest number of votes.

MiBeloved 3 years ago

If I say that the sun sets in the north, then does it?

So for all these statements what underwrites them except proof in reality?

Do not use the disagreement between famous teachers as a reason not to pursue reality, and do not cling to that doubt.

Free yourself from it and make your investigation but do so in accordance with reality.

The idea that these masters have to say the same thing and that their statements should be supportive of each other, is an idea only and is not practical.

What you should do is to select one teacher among the ones whom you recognize as being worthy of your trust, and then do whatever that teacher says. It is risky because that teacher might be ignorant as well even if it is ignorance to a lesser degree. But what choice do you have? The infant must rely on its mother even if the mother is dysfunctional.

Try one teacher sincerely and if that does not work out, then find another. What other method has the universe provided for you? What else can the infant do but rely on a dysfunctional mother?

As soon as you can, trash the idea that all of the teachers have to be saying the same thing. Christ spoke on the basis on his experience and Buddha on the basis of his. You may realize that each teacher speaks on that basis of their own existential experience. And if reality does not expose its whole self to a teacher, then he can only give descriptions about what he was exposed to.

The mere idea that Christ attested to a deity and swore by one, and Buddha did not proves that all the paths do not lead to the same place, otherwise they would all be in agreement. Existence is so vast, so infinite, that any particular teacher may have fathomed only a very limited part of it.

So of all the teachers mentioned, what is your selection for a system which you can sincerely follow?

This is important because the child needs a mother to nourish it, even if that mother is dysfunctional.

If you select Buddha then be sincere to him, suck on his breast and see if it satisfies you and causes you to grow.

And leave the others aside. Do not try to suck on several mothers at the same time.

Replies (0)