Rebirth / Physicalness Desired

This runs very deep indeed! Over lifetimes of evolutions, the sense of identity has come to rely on the instincts of the life force not only for accomplishments, validation but also for survival.

These needs and wants which may be considered subterfuge from the stand-point of a core-self are presented through the intellect and represent the summum bunum of normal existence. They denote a dependence/ addiction to the texture of physicalness and a staunch reliance on it for permanence and perpetuation.

Such existence is based on the long-standing desire to experiment through physical material nature over lifetimes. It is sustained and guaranteed by the instinctual distancing from and denial of death or lack of a physical vessel for exploration.

It therefore stands to reason that no amount of speculation will even scratch the surface of the root cause of physical existential bondage to reality.

Only a counter-current, against the ordinary grain model of introspection, painstakingly tracing back, a detailed withdrawal of engagements and attachments can clear the subtle form of its automatic attractions and adoptions of up hazard births.

It really doesn't matter what one professes.  In meditation one needs to be accessing states of consciousness where physicality fades or vanishes altogether.  One needs to get used to such states where the mind is separated from gross forms like the subtle and physical  bodies.

These states are accessible with a reasonable amount of effort and consistency in practice.  To focus too much on the subtle body is a handicap in such a practice.  The mind is the basis of the subtle body and also the physical one. 

One needs to experience the mind as isolated from both these. 

From my personal experience and level of realization and or achievement so far, detailing at the subtle level remains the aim. It is my hope and aspiration that from there indeed I shall at some future time arrive at the level you are underlining.

If favored sufficiently by providence, I may access such levels while using a physical body, otherwise, the objective at this point is to at least prepare for continuation on the path along similar goals that you have stated, but from the subtle realm. 

Currently the entrapments of the bodily implications and subsequent responsibilities compromise my desires, enough to even thwart the “reasonable of effort and consistency in practice”. So long as I can with some confidence or reliance get a footing in the subtle realm even in general, I have come to believe and accept that my path is protected, as well as consider time relative and malleable on an endeavor that may span over lifetimes.

So yes, professing is futile! Therefore I hope to eventually advance now or later, even as I struggle with bodily implications. And, subsequently continue to parse the mind, subtle body and physical body, because definitely, and as rightly pointed out, the subtle body is yet another impediment to overcome for a guaranteed success on the path to liberation.

Furthermore, the subtle is actually the very source of the complexities and perplexities of the physical body’s platform. Though it must be contended with, it is accurate, and I concur with the consideration of the subtle platform being the real beginning only, and that the mind as it were must be experienced in isolation from both bodies. Thank you for broadening the discussion around the post.

Thanks for sharing, Surya.  Your reply gave me plenty to think about, especially in terms of how students may approach practice in different ways.

For myself, working with the subtle body was always hard.  Even in dreams, the few that I do recall, I am more oriented to myself as a mind than as a subtle body or subtle form or subtle person. And I have not learned how to control the subtle body in dreams.   When I began Theravada Buddhist meditation, I was immediately comfortable tackling the mind directly.  I actually exercise the most control while meditating.  It probably depends on the evolutionary disposition.   

In meditation, I've had a handful of times where I became isolated from whatever bodies there may be.  Those events are profound and have become guideposts in my practice. There still remains the issue of developing that consciousness.  I feel a lot of it depends on genuine disenchantment which sometimes leads to utter seriousness.  For me, that's when a meditation can really break boundaries.

Also, I feel much depends on where one has natural faith or confidence.  Since I've never had confidence in the subtle body and never became skilled in dream awareness and astral travel, I don't have the same confidence in the subtle body as you expressed.  Thank goodness there are various ways and means to progress!

One thing I'd like to mention, which is veering off point somewhat, is those times of awareness, when one is acutely in tune with suffering, and feels the existential anguish or fear at the core of the heart.  It's as if there is no body at all, but the heart exists and one sees directly into the knots of fear, desire, and attachment  that keep one bound.  Usually I am distracted enough by worldly, outwardly scenarios that I do not have the clear insight into suffering.  That is a problem, because until we know the traps of the heart, and are aware of death as a constant companion,  all our philosophies and professions and even our practice, will only be scratching the surface  and not penetrating deeply.  

Good luck to you!  May the Paths we tread  lead to liberation and the Supreme Peace.  

Marcia, thank you for the candid follow-up. I agree that the subtle body is an impediment, but because I also consider the mind as a part of my subtle structure, I see the need to work through that body at this stage. And, as you stated there are various ways and means to progress.

I can see how you are penetrating the mind, and I think that is very advanced. I also have a certain consideration for the physical form as a support that is directly connected to the subtle one, almost through osmosis. So I feel that my progression demands a detailed, gradual and slow advancement.

I agree that the mind deserves a lot of our attention, it is an unusually vast domain to conceive with the thinking capability, and it gives realness to our emotions, as well as even interprets reality for us since it can also give us a sense of attachment. Upon death, the lack of a subtle body will make astral projection, and all things dream related immediately accessible. My design is to adjust my attitude or consciousness for that situation.

I appreciated you stating: ”That is a problem because until we know the traps of the heart, and are aware of death as a constant companion,  all our philosophies and professions and even our practice, will only be scratching the surface  and not penetrating deeply.” I also believe that death is best seen as a pending event, one that will make the reality of the astral the main one. I see that my emotions, my feelings, realizations, and thought patterns are also part of the subtle body-mind complex.

The subtle just like the mind is unseen but real. Once the physical body is set to disintegrate and recycle modes, I will be limited and totally immersed in the consciousness of that reality and as it relates to me. It is best just I see death as a passage, and prepare for it as much as I can. Because I may be stuck with that psychological content, I need to understand how to best deal with it.

May all our paths have garlands of success! 

Thank you, Surya, for your explanation, which sounds like very good practice indeed. I find these exchanges helpful. 

Thank you very much, Marcia, it is always engaging and inspirational. 

I have thought of an eventual Vipassana retreat, I hope to carry it out.